Cant keep plants alive

PunkRock050

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I really want to keep many live plants in my tanks, but I have been having lots of trouble keeping them alive. They do fine for a week or so, then start to yellow a bit, then they almost start to just dissolve. There are huge chunks missing from my Amazon Sword. I have a PH of around 7.1 and I have been using fertilizer and root tabs to no avail. Any suggestions? Would co2 help?
 
OK, I'll take a stab at this one.

It depends on what you want to accomplish. I read an analogy recently that described three types of freshwater aqua culture.

1. Fish tanks - these are for fish only, the sterile plastic plant, and the bubbling treasure chest that opens and closes. :lol:
2. Aquariums - these are mostly fish only, with some live plants. Fish are the main focus.
3. Planted tanks - these are mostly live plants, with fish, snails, etc being a part of the ecosystem. The PLANTS are the main focus here. Most of the available space in the tank is for plants (like many environments in nature). If you can keep the plants happy, all the other life will be happy too. Of course, you have a smaller fish ratio here.

OK, if you keep reading (surprise, surprise) you see I like option three. :thumbs:

Planted tanks are very interesting. They are changing all the time. I have talked with people who have converted to planted tanks, and now want to add plants, or rearrange plants instead of getting more fish! Actually, I am finding myself liking several different snail species right now. SOME snails eat plants, but most do not. You have to feed snails too ya know. They like the algae wafers and bottom feeder tabs.

Best book I have ever read is Diana Walsted's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. Sorry, no pictures here, just plain hard facts, science, and lots of good tips. It will open your eyes. You can get it at Amazon.com

My favorite web site is www.naturalaquariums.com


Plants in aquariums require several things.

1. Good lighting.. At least 2 watts per gallon. Lights on 10-12 hours per day.
The dark period is just as important as the light period. Most standard flourescent aquarium hoods with one light are not enough-just check the wattage on the bulb. You cannot leave the light on longer to compensate. You must have the intensity.

2. Good substrate. This one creates a lot of controversy. There is a ton of different methods that hobbyists use. Although I do have two older converted "fish" tanks with gravel substrates that are doing OK, I am an advocate of the "mud" method. 1.5 - 2 inches of plain topsoil, do not use stuff with any added fertilizer, compost or manure. Cover the topsoil 1 - 1.5 inches of fine gravel. If you use the mud method, you rarely have to use fertilizer. The fish food should do that for you. Many get by with plain gravel, but it should be of a finer consistency rather than larger pebbles. Gravel is inert - no organic compounds that plants like. Some people will place their plants with soil in clay pots. In gravel, don't use any fertilizer until the plant becomes established and seems that it is in need of it. You want the roots to spread out and look for some. Do not super clean the gravel. You are removing the stuff plant roots like. Lightly clean the surface only when needed.

3. Filtration. Plants are filters. They love ammonia. I am a "natural" aquarium hobbyist. I do not use any filters or power heads. I keep my tanks heavily planted. If you are going to use filters, do not use anything with air such as airstones or bubble walls. Plants need CO2 (carbon dioxide). They produce CO2 naturally 24 hours a day. During the "light" period however, they also use photosynthesis, which converts the CO2 to Oxygen (which fish like), but depletes the water of CO2 for the plants. This is why the "dark" period is just as important as the light period. Air bubbles cause the CO2 to escape through surface agitation. Many hobbyists like cannister filters, or the outside filters that you hang on the tank. It is generally not a good idea to use undergravel filters (especially with the mud method). If it were me, I would get a smaller filter so as not to disturb the surface too much. I do not use CO2 injection. Much of the filtration issues depend on how many and what type of fish you have. Some species of fish like a lot of water movement. If you have a "fish" tank with lots of fish, you will need filters. My current interest is in livebearers. And, believe me there are many more livebearers than just guppies, mollies, platies and swordtails, even though I like these too. It is such a diverse group, it keeps me very interested. Some are a little drab, some are colorful, but in a planted tank you should see how they all come to life! Even the drab ones are interesting since they are much happier darting about through the plants.

4. Patience ( I hate this part). In my experience, it takes a good 3 to 4 weeks for plants to show good growth and establish themselves. It is NOT unusual for plants to loose a lot of leaves. Many new plants that you buy in a store, including amazon swords are grown outside or in greenhouses with lots of natural sunlight. Then you put them in your relatively dark tank and expect miracles. Most plants will look very different after they become used to this new light level.

5. Fertilization. Hmmm.. With the mud method, I don't fertilize. The fish food, fish waste, snail waste, etc. keep things humming along. When I first started adding plants to my fish only tanks, I added the commercial fertilizers to the water. After all I had a gravel substrate right (no undergravel filters)? Wrong... Since the plants were not established, and really didn't need it yet, what I got was lots of green water. If you get green water, just be patient, in a couple of weeks, and enough plant material it will clear up. Do some small water changes during this time to dilute all the fertilizers you put in. Plants have an order just like animals. Algae is a simple plant and will eventually die out to allow the higher order plants to have the nutrients. This is why you only add fertilizer IF you think your plants really need it.

6. Water changes. Well, as with anything "aqua" these are important here too. Although using Diana Walsted's methods, she claims she only does water changes every 6 months. Of course, you need to replace water due to evaporation, so this adds fresh water. I have found that you need to do more water changes at the beginning of a new planted tank using the mud method. It takes 6 to 8 weeks or more for the topsoil to stabilize as a submerged soil. I monitor the nitrate levels (since I don't use filters) to see if a water change is warranted.


OK, enough for now. Now isn't this interesting? A whole new twist on aqua life. Fish don't always rule, in fact in many freshwater systems, they don't... ;)

--Tim
 
Tim, you are one hell of an "natural" aquarist. :hyper: Your post helped me alot, and break myths about planted tanks! Now, I'm converting my "aquarium" to part gravel(noplants) to mud substrate(planted parts. I've been thinknig doing so and Im really not sure. Also, I really don't know when to fertilize. Some people say not to, but most people say yes. Im confused.

I also have one more thought i found on the web. Some people say 5 watts per gallon shud be the ideal level of lights for bright loving plants. But I also read that the bigger the tank, less is needed. For example, a 30 gallon needs about 3-5 watts per gallon to grow "red plants", but you only need about 2-3 watts per gallon if you have a 75 gallon. Im really confused. :S

Anyway, really nice post :thumbs:
 
Thanks, I'm glad my "little" post helped some. I'm glad to see you may want to give the mud method a try. Remember, I find that keeping aqua life, plants and/or fish should be FUN. Researching different opinions and how people interpret the science is a very interesting part. Maybe, if you had a couple tanks, do some experimenting.

You said:
Also, I really don't know when to fertilize. Some people say not to, but most people say yes. Im confused.

** I would not worry too much about fertilizing a NEW tank with NEW plants if you try the mud method.

If you have an established tank with gravel and no undergravel filters, don't super clean the gravel. Add the proper lighting, stick the plants in, wait 3 to 4 weeks to start seeing growth. You should have PLENTY of fish waste to get them started. People who fertilize a lot mostly use CO2 injection, and have a gravel/laterite substrate. This causes abnormal plant growth, which of course uses up more fertilizer. Some of these beautiful show tanks are like 75 gal tanks with lots of plants, and relatively few fish (not much food or waste). They are heavily filtered with cannister /biological filters which also suck up the fish waste before it has a chance to help the plants. See the relationship? It's not that it is wrong, it is just another way of doing things.

If you choose not to filter heavily (or not at all), you will find that your plants will start growing and growing (given proper light). You will have fish food and fish waste in there everyday that will contribute as fertilizer. Just let it be.... After a while, if it appears that things are slowing down (maybe a balance is taking place, this might be good!) you may want to add some fertilizer in SMALL amounts. Step back and see if things pick up some. Plants do not react to fertilizer right away, you may need to wait a couple weeks to see new growth. OR maybe add a few more fish or snails to make more waste :)

It is always better NOT to add something unless it is needed. If you have the proper lighting, plants don't die like fish, you usually have some time to make adjustments.


You said:
Some people say 5 watts per gallon shud be the ideal level of lights for bright loving plants. But I also read that the bigger the tank, less is needed. For example, a 30 gallon needs about 3-5 watts per gallon to grow "red plants", but you only need about 2-3 watts per gallon if you have a 75 gallon. Im really confused


Hmmm.. I don't have any experience with larger tanks (although I'd like to!). Here is my best guess. In smaller tanks, the plants reach the top more frequently, and fill more of the available space. More light is needed to "penetrate" through all of the plant material to reach the smaller plants. In larger tanks, you have more room so you probably have more open areas that light can get through.

Red plants do require stronger light. If you can afford stronger lights, go for it. You will need to pay attention to those plants you may add that like lower light levels. They may require some shade areas.

My advice to you, since you're new at this is not to try red plants for now. You didn't state what tank size or current lights you have. At first, get the fast growing plants and let them fill up your tank. You will be surprised how lovely it looks without the more "advanced" plants. When this happens, you have a certain balance. Try 2-3 watts per
gallon to start. Later, after you get the hang of things, maybe add more light and try the red plants. With plants, you can clip, pull and rearrange!

Hope this helps.

--Tim
 
Yes, Im kinda new to this. Currently, I have a 75 gallon tank, and its getting expnsive(I went for a 75 gallon as I read the bigger it is, the better and less maintennace,guess i was wrong.). Also, here are the residents.

I have about more than 2 watts per gallon of lighting from 1 tri phospor light, 1 ultralume, 1 light and aquarium light, and 1 cool white.

My fishes are: 10 tiger barbs(tho the last time i checked, there was 9, im still waiting until today as i had green water, and im doing the black out).
2 bala sharks, 3 siamese algae eater, 20 zebra danios, 1 red tailed black shark, 1 syno eupetrus(faetherfin catfish)and a few snails(to control algae).. I also have 1 aquaclear 500(rated for 100 gallon), and 1 aquaclear 200(rated for 40 gallon). Is my fileter too much?

So I was right that having plants seems to increase bioload(most people say it wont.) because the plants sucks ammonia, and provides more surface for bacterias.

Also, the reson i asked about the two watts per gallon is this link:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2...7/technicl.html


the guy who owns that website said he was succesful in growing almost every plants(reds included)
but he barely uses 2 watts per gallon. He also said that in his expericne, the bigger the tank, the less wattage it needs. I think it has something to do with the thing you said about bigger tanks.

anyways, thanx!
Your a really great help.

Franz.
 
Btw, how much shud I clean the tank?I used to clean almost everyday cos people told I shud because there is no such thing as overcleaning. I also forgot to tell you that my tank is lightly planted right now. 2 bunches of elodea. 4 anubias. 2 stem plant that looks like babytears but Im not sure. 2 dwarf hair grass. They arent dead. They are all growing, but at a slow steady rate. I might buy some java ferns, moss when I get some spare money(I'm only 17).
 
Also, where do you think can I get some top soil or simply, soil. Can I just the ones in my backyard, then boil/sterilize it? I live by the beach(actully, the water is about 5 feet away from my back door), and do you think salinity might affect the growth of plants? Im gonna try to soak it, and constantly change the water to get the salt out:).
 
75 gal is a big tank - at least for freshwater fish. You are very fortunate to have a tank that size. It is tall enough to grow many plants without too much pruning.

Ok, you have at least 2 watts per gallon. That's a good start. However, the plants you talked about mostly are slow growing plants.

2 bunches of elodea. 4 anubias. 2 stem plant that looks like babytears but Im not sure. 2 dwarf hair grass.

The Elodea is Egeria Densa a fast growing plant. The one that looks like babytears may be Moneywort or Bacopa monnieri or possibly Bacopa caroliniana - I consider these a medium grower. Anubias are slow growers and are generally the last plant you want to add to a new plant tank until things really get growing. But, they are good lower light plants.

Why does green water scare you? It is just a simple form of algae. It is doing a job of eating all those extra fertilizers you put in there ( I think you said that you did). Actually algae is the BEST filterer in the plant world. Better even than bacteria! If you shut off the lights, you are depriving the higher order plants of what they need... read my post again. Leave those lights on and get fast growing plants, and do small water changes over time. It will go away - may take 3 weeks. Do NOT put any fertilizer in there right now.

Some fast growing plants:

Hornwort - Ceratophyllum demersum -a floating plant - really helps with that green water. Get it if you can find it. Since it is floating, it will be closer to the lights and will really use up nutrients that that algae is currently eating.

Najas grass - Najas guadalupensis or graminea- another floating plant that can also be planted.

Egeria Densa - you have some of this. Get as much as you can. After things get going, you can always remove it if you don't like it. Egeria will look very dense when you first get it (grown in greenhouses, remember?). It will tend to stretch out a bit.

Ambulia - Limnophila Sessiliflora - you can usually find this one. Get lots of it. I really like the look of this plant. This is sold in bunches like the Egeria. ALWAYS REMOVE THE RUBBER BANDS OR LEAD PLANT WEIGHTS.

Hygrophilia - many different species. I like Hygrophilia Diformus(Water Wisteria) and Hygrophilia polysperma(green Hygro - the variety Sunset Hygro may give you a little of the reds you are looking for).

Some of the small sword plants grow pretty quickly. Like Echinodorus tennellus - Narrow Leaf Micro Chain Sword.

In a big tank you will need a lot of plant material at first to get things going. As far as the filters, read the post. You don't want too much surface agitation. The filters you have are fine. As you add more and more plants, turn down the filters. In fact you may want to turn them down now (not off). You have lots of green water right? That is a plant that is filtering the water for you. You may even find after a while, that you can shut them off! How long has this tank been set up? Most of the bacteria that your tank uses is all over it. On the glass, in the gravel (which you keep way too clean), on the plants, on the fish. The filters have only a small percentage of your good bacteria.

As far as cleaning the gravel, read the post. Stop it! Don't do that! You are removing the stuff that plants like. If you have a "fish" only tank, then yes you want to keep the gravel cleaner because there are no plant roots in there to eat up the waste.

Topsoil - go to your local garden center. Even maybe Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart or KMart. Look for a bag of topsoil. Do NOT get any that has fertilizer, compost or manure in it. Just plain stuff. Maybe a mixture of sand, loam and some peat would be OK. This would be on the rich side. Some people have had success with garden soil. It is risky in that if there are any chemicals on it - fertilizers, weed killers, bug killers, etc. No good. Salinity factor would not be good either since you live by the ocean (you lucky dog). Do not sterilize it. You will be removing the trace elements that the plants want! You will end up with inert soil, just like gravel.

Your comment on bioload. You may have this confused. When I think of bioload, I think of the animals that increase the ammonia/nitrogen load with fish waste, fish food, snail waste, etc. In other words, you want ot DECREASE the bioload. You decrease it by having more surface area for bacteria to grow (i.e. power filters with sponges or wheels), plants to eat the ammonia and nitrogens (natural filters), water changes to dilute it. Plants can increase the bioload. When plant leaves die, they rot. This releases nitrogen. But the live plants will turn around and filter this, and the snails will eat the DYING plant material. Unless you have an enormous amount of dead leaves, just leave them. (Isn't the diversity great! Even snails are important)

To be honest with you, let's apply some wisdom. You already have an established tank. I would put my money and time into plants right now rather than tearing down the tank to add soil. Remember that soil needs a good 6 to 8 weeks or more to stabilize. It is best to add fish slowly to the mud method. Plants are your primary concern. You may put all your fish at risk during this time. Many people, including my favorite web site only use gravel substrate. PLEASE READ HER ARTICLES on establishing natural aquaria, even if you decide not to go filterless. There is also a forum there that has some helpful posts. If you can get some plants growing and get the tank filled with them, you may decide to leave things alone for awhile (don't fertilize at all). This is not a complex process. Keep it as simple as possible given you have limited money. Buy as much plant material - fast growers as you possibly can. Print out these posts and read them over and over. You may find some of the answers to the questions you are asking.

Read these articles please:
http://www.naturalaquariums.com/aquariums/...s/articles.html

A great one where a guy experimented with the mud method:
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/plan...ant/lotech.html


If you can get money orders, or have a credit card to get a pay-pal account (I know you're only 17, maybe your parents would help if you give them the money up front), a great place to find plants is from other hobbyists. I like www.aquabid.com. This is an auction site where you can bid on all things aqua. You can probably find all the plants I mentioned here (except Najas grass, I really want some of that!).



--Tim
 
I'll second the notion that it is a myth that red plants require more light.
5w/gal? That's way too much for most folks. 2w/gal is a good range for 99% of new folks.

You can go non CO2 or CO2, that's often the first choice and look at your goals before deciding which route to go. I have/keep both method and have for many years.

I use deep substrates as a rule, I've used soil in the past but prefer using Flourite+peat+mulm........mulm is the detrial matter that you can vacuum out off/inm your gravel and that settles on the bottom of a water change bucket. It's good stuff to add to any new substrate(and ground peat).
The long term results work very well in a non CO2 tank using this method which is very similar to my CO2 tank substrates. I do add more peat and mulm to the non CO2 tanks(about 3-4x as much).

But the idea is to have a balance that allows the fish waste to be consumed by the plants, thereby not requiring any dosing of nutrients xcept in the form of fish food=> fish waste. Adding CO2 requires you to add NO3, K, PO4, traces, only 4 things perhaps 1-3x a week but growth and peraling is greatly increased as a result. CO2 itself is very easy once set, you seldom ever touch it(and then only a few seconds).

I really don't find a CO2 planted tank that much work. But for neglect, a non CO2 tank is about the most difficult tank to beat. I top mine off for evaporation and don't do water changes except maybe once every 3-6 months, but I have a moderate-low fish load, herbivores and densely planted from the start. Plants do not grow fast and I can only grow certain "easy" species.

Most boards will favor the CO2 planted tank, give them both a try but do NOT mix methods.

Diana's methods are sound as well, I have my own variations but the basics are similar.

If you want to refresh a soil based tank, consider making a soupy mud and putting these in ice cube trays and adding these to the plants you think need a boost after a few months etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
Kool idea Tom with the muddy ice cubes! I have a couple gravel only tanks that I would like to add some soil to, but do not want to tear it down. Do you think this method would work in that situation?

I might try a CO2 tank. I am in the middle of setting up a fish area in my basement. When you talk about peat, are you referring to the really dark soil kind (here in Ohio we call it Michigan Peat) or peat moss that needs to be soaked? Do you mix it all together or layer it?

Does the peat help to buffer the water? I hear that CO2 injection can really cause PH to go crazy if you are not careful.

--Tim
 
i want to put more plants in my tanks...i dont even know what kind they are but your 2 or 3 post prtty much answered my q's thanx dude....oh yeah and revenge, you so lucky!!!! :nod: I used to live in Newport.....i miss it :-(
 
Tim,
You really have some great information. Thanks.

I bought some plants with weights and they told me to leave it on. Why do you say "ALWAYS REMOVE THE RUBBER BANDS OR LEAD PLANT WEIGHTS"?
I have small gravel (1/4") and found it difficult to get them seated in my first 5.5 tank. Then in my 10g tank I used 15 lbs instead of the recommended 10 lbs. It was easier to seat them.
This 10g tank I want to have plants established before adding fish. So, I got banana fruit and a few other plants. But reading over what you have written I am confused about how long the tank should be fishless. The fish and decaying food help the plants. I asked for plant food and they gave me some iron based food. I have used two capfuls in about 2 weeks and have been conflicted about using it, particularly now after reading what you said.

When I started my 5.5g I got wysteria and leaves kept dying off that I removed it. Now after reading what you said I should have put up with it until it truly died. I was afraid for the fish from what I had read. I was careful in removing the dead leaves as fast as I could, but I sure see things different now.

TIA,
John
 
Some say the lead in the plant weights is not good for your water. But, besides that, you will "constrict" the stems together. Over time you will notice that the plant will rot at that point. It's like putting a rubber band around your wrist and then gaining weight. I'ts gonna dig in. I can see a purpose for the weights to some degree, but the rubber bands are there for the conveniece of selling the "bunch". Do an experiment. Leave it on a bunch and take it off another. Leave on for a couple months.

Right now I have a cabomba that I left the lead weights on. Actually, I put it in the tank without planting it ( I was in a hurry, and just dropped it in, then forgot about it :blink: ) It has been there now over a month. I was doing pruning today and noticed it. The plant is doing fine, but down at the base, it is looking kinda yuckey. Eventually the stems will break off.

In your new 10 gallon, you did not put in a soil substrate, just gravel. This means that you will not have a period of time where you soil is getting used to being submerged. There will also be nothing at the roots for the plants to feed on. Actually, in this situation it may be better to add SOME fish and snails along with plants to get some waste in there and get the biological system going. You are still going to have an adjustment period 6-8 weeks I would guess since you are starting completely sterile. Get fast growing plants at first until you build up some fish/snail gook in the substrate.

I would be leary of fertilizing if you add fish. I am just afraid you will end up with green water. Fish and snails produce quite a bit of waste pretty quickly if you don't have a filter. I have a 5.5 gal bare bottom tank and have Endlers livebearers in there for about 3 weeks (with floating plants). Fish are doing great, and the stuff at the bottom is building up. Of course, in this situation I will need to clean the bottom. Snails produce quite a bit of waste too, especially apple snails (the big gold ones).

What kind of light do you have over your 10 gal. If you read the post, make sure you have enough!

--Tim
 

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