Canister filters for salty tanks

[subopposite]

I was just reading a few posts that said canister filters are nitrate factories. I have a 46 gallon tank with two GSP and I actually already got a Eheim Ecco 2236 filter, so it will have to do. But what is this talk about nitrate factories. I will be putting an rena air 300 pump to it to give some bubbles, which I understand is a good idea for multiple reasons.
Are canisters bad for brakish and marine tanks or are they actually good, but building nitrates is something you have to watch out for. I would guess that you might have to do more frequent water changes to keep them low.
Can anyone explain the concept and if they are a bad idea for a salty tank. I was under the impression that is what you want for filtration if you had most any choice, but is a regular power filter a better idea. I do have an emperor 400, but would think the Eheim would be way better choice.

 

[CFC]

In a brackish tank nitrates are not so much of a worry, just doing frequent water changes is enough to keep them down to safe levels and if the SG is above 1.005 then using a protein skimmer will help no end as it will remove protein from the water before it can break down biologically.

In marine tanks and particually reef tanks containing sensative corals and inverts even low levels of nitrate are undesireable, for this reason many marine keepers have moved away from the conventional bio/mechanical type filters and opt for more sophisticated systems like fluidised bed filters and trickle towers or filter the water naturally with live rock and deep sand beds.

I will be putting an rena air 300 pump to it to give some bubbles, which I understand is a good idea for multiple reasons.

This isnt actually a good idea in a brackish tank, in effect you can end up turning the entire tank into a huge protein skimmer. If you want to add extra movement to the water for aeration then use a powerhead placed near the surface.

 

[Ed4567]

If you are talking about a full saltwater tank then it really depends on the type:
-Cannister filters are ideal for the fish only aquarium, due to flexibility in media, and being able to handle the large bioload that typically exists in these tanks.
-However for full reef setups their use is limited. Typically live rock and a powerful protein skimmer is used for filtration, with cannister filters (and other mechanical filters) being rejected because they do tend to accumulate nitrate. Having said this though I do have a fluval attatched to my reef as a place to run carbon and for water movement.

n.b. I do not like the phrase "nitrate factory", cannister filters do not produce nitrate from nothing, they just convert ammonia to nitrate like any other biological filter. What they do miss though is a way of nutrient export from the system, so the nitrate and other metabolic product just stay in the tank. Nutrient export can take many forms in reef tanks- live rock supposidly converts nitrate to nitrogen gas through anaerobic bacteria, protein skimmers get proteins removed and macro algeas are harvested removing the nutrients contained in them.

If you are considering a full saltwater tank I suggest researching at a number of other sites that i'm not sure if I can post here.
Ed

 

[Nethius]

I will be putting an rena air 300 pump to it to give some bubbles, which I understand is a good idea for multiple reasons.

This isnt actually a good idea in a brackish tank, in effect you can end up turning the entire tank into a huge protein skimmer. If you want to add extra movement to the water for aeration then use a powerhead placed near the surface.

please elaborate

protein skimmers use very small "micro bubbles" and an air stone would not create such small bubbles, or with thte force needed (atleast this is how i understand, never used a protein skimmer)

are you advising not to aerate his brackish tank? i think any tank that only has a cannister filter running would require some type of aeration. the bubbler would also ensure that any and all salts gets disolved into the water (if they were not fully so before being added)

 

[subopposite]

CFC, so a protein skimmer will not help at all if the salt is above 1.005? Right now my salt content is right around 1.008 and would only go up as the GSP get older.

So, does it make sense for my case of having SG of 1.008 or higher and having a canister, that I do not want any air pump or protein skimmer and if I were to add anything, it would or should be a powerhead and that would pretty much take care of my system?

Thanks for the nice informative posts. Quality posts.

I finally have 25 dollars worth of VIP points at bigals fish store so that could help me get money towards a powerhead. I had thought about using it towards an air pump or protein skimmer, but I think I will scratch that idea, especially if it is going to hurt my tank.

Any ideas on a powerhead. What size/power? Can you have too much? Do they have adjustable knobs? In actuality I know zero about them currently, but will be doing research on them after I post this.

 

[subopposite]

Just checked out a powerhead. They seem pretty cheap. Anyone tell me if the Eheim Aquaball Power 1212 is any good. It puts out 170 GPH, has adjustable rate settings and an integrated diffuser.

 

[CFC]

CFC, so a protein skimmer will not help at all if the salt is above 1.005? Right now my salt content is right around 1.008 and would only go up as the GSP get older.

The exact oppisit, protein skimmers will not work below 1.005 as the salinity is too low to form the smaller bubbles needed for air stripping.

Just checked out a powerhead. They seem pretty cheap. Anyone tell me if the Eheim Aquaball Power 1212 is any good. It puts out 170 GPH, has adjustable rate settings and an integrated diffuser.

You cant go wrong with eheim, very good quallity products.

protein skimmers use very small "micro bubbles" and an air stone would not create such small bubbles, or with thte force needed (atleast this is how i understand, never used a protein skimmer)

are you advising not to aerate his brackish tank? i think any tank that only has a cannister filter running would require some type of aeration. the bubbler would also ensure that any and all salts gets disolved into the water (if they were not fully so before being added)

The water movement provided by a canister filter and powerhead will be more than adequate for oxgenating the tank, airstones do not "add" more oxygen to the water. In salt water the bubbles from the defuser will be smaller due to the water densisty so in smaller tanks can have the effect of turning the whole tank into a giant protein skimmer. When adding salt you NEVER add salt directly to the water, you must mix salt water solutions before adding them to the tank.

 

[Nethius]

The water movement provided by a canister filter and powerhead will be more than adequate for oxgenating the tank, airstones do not "add" more oxygen to the water. In salt water the bubbles from the defuser will be smaller due to the water densisty so in smaller tanks can have the effect of turning the whole tank into a giant protein skimmer. When adding salt you NEVER add salt directly to the water, you must mix salt water solutions before adding them to the tank.

yes a canister and a powerhead, but there is no powerhead at this point. i would not trust a canister filter alone. and yes having an airstone with help aerate the water, the bubbles break the surface tension, which causes the water to get aerated.

of course you dont add the salt directly, but you may poor some salt in the tank with the new water, you cant be 100% sure all the salt is dissovled, unless maybe you let the water sit for 24 hours with an airstone in it, and stir it ever once in a while

if a bubbler does the same thing as a protein skimmer, why would anyone pay $200 + for one???

 

[subopposite]

CFC, you typed, if the SG is above 1.005 then using a protein skimmer will help no end as it will remove protein from the water before it can break down biologically.

To me, that sounded like you were saying if the SG is above 1.005, then the protein skimmer will not help, but then you typed that they will not work below that. I am guessing you typed that sentence wrong, because helping no end means not doing anything. Unless you meant it would help to no end in which case it would be a lovely piece of equipment.

Can you just verify if a protein skimmer is a good idea or a bad idea for my tank setup, which is SG of 1.008, with a canister filter. Or is the powerhead the way to go? Sorry if I got your sentences confused.

 

[Stryker]

"helps no end" is a "saying" here.

It means the help it provides is without end.... ie infinite help.... which seems to be the opposite of how you perceived the sentance.

HTH.

Jon

 

[nick.w]

hey, i dnt no much about the scientific of all this, jst at my lfs they have a juwel tank running only 30gal which has a canister filter right? they have a protein skimmer with it aswel. I mentioned this 2 him and he said i jst changed the media as said by the makers and it does fine. So aslong as u keep up with the water changing and the filter media changes ull b ok

 

[CFC]

Sorry i forget the slight language barrier that exists across the pond, Stryker is right what "helping no end" means here is that the help they give has no end.

Yes i would 100% recomend a protein skimmer for your set up as well as a powerhead.

yes a canister and a powerhead, but there is no powerhead at this point. i would not trust a canister filter alone. and yes having an airstone with help aerate the water, the bubbles break the surface tension, which causes the water to get aerated.

If you read my first post correctly you would see that i said adding a powerhead instead of a air pump and stone would be a better idea, at no point was it said there wouldnt also be a filter of some kind to clean and push the water around.

This isnt actually a good idea in a brackish tank, in effect you can end up turning the entire tank into a huge protein skimmer. If you want to add extra movement to the water for aeration then use a powerhead placed near the surface.

if a bubbler does the same thing as a protein skimmer, why would anyone pay $200 + for one???

The most basic protein skimmers are nothing more than a tube with a collection cup on top and a wooden air diffuser at the bottom, the whole thing sits inside the tank like a internal filter does. As the bubbles from the diffuser break on the surface they create foam and the proteins are lifted out of the water on the foam and deposited in the cup. In small tanks the tank takes the place of the tube with the foam forming on the suface of the water but with no collection cup the proteins just get dumped back in the water, if you have ever seen the contents of a skimmers collection cup you will know how bad this can be.