Can I take water from an established tank with high nitrate?

[seangee]

daily water changes??? How is there so much misinformation online? I try to post in these forums for a sense of clarity and often just end up being more confused. I am following the fish lab guide for fish in cycling:

Emergency: Performing a Fish-in Cycle The RIGHT Way

The fish-in cycle is a dated method of cycling your tank with fish inside. We'll show you how to safely perform a fish-in cycle in your tank!

fishlab.com

Under this guide, it tells you not to perform any water changes until ammonia levels reach 2PPM.

Agreed, and unfortunately anyone can set up a website and call themselves an expert. I have just had a quick scan of that particular site and there is some shockingly bad and even dangerous advice on there

 

[Byron]

I would be curious why your pH is above neutral. Do you know the GH and KH? I'm wondering if there is something calcareous in the tank...rock or substrate composed of calcareous substances like limestone, coral, shells, dolomite, aragonite. Do you have live plants?

I just skimmed that link, but in very soft acidic water or with plants it is a very different issue.

 

[utahfish]

Thanks for your post Byron, you have been incredibly helpful since I started posting here. For my established tank, I have only introduced Prime once, yesterday. I am following the fish lab guide for fish-in cycling:

Emergency: Performing a Fish-in Cycle The RIGHT Way

The fish-in cycle is a dated method of cycling your tank with fish inside. We'll show you how to safely perform a fish-in cycle in your tank!

fishlab.com

Is this not a good guide to follow? You guys are giving me complete opposite advice.

Here are current water parameters:
Ph: 7.4-7.6
Ammonia: .6-.7
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10-20
Temp: 78

In terms of my other tank, I have recently taken it over from a highly irresponsible owner. Just Some zebra danios and guppies in there. In order to combat nitrate, I have been changing 25-35% of water every 1-2 days. Other than that, I am not sure what else to do for the nitrate. Here are current water parameters:

Ph: 7.5-7.6
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 100-120
Temp: 74.2

Any advice you could provide would be incredibly helpful.. thank you!!

With nitrates that high check filter for excess organics and clean with water, do large water change and thorough gravel vac. Only way to get rid of nitrates is to remove from water and replace with new nitrate free water and live plants will also absorb some nitrates.

 

[TacomaToker]

I would be curious why your pH is above neutral. Do you know the GH and KH? I'm wondering if there is something calcareous in the tank...rock or substrate composed of calcareous substances like limestone, coral, shells, dolomite, aragonite. Do you have live plants?

I just skimmed that link, but in very soft acidic water or with plants it is a very different issue.

I do have live plants. A couple Amazon swords, and various other small and medium sized plants.

I would be curious why your pH is above neutral. Do you know the GH and KH? I'm wondering if there is something calcareous in the tank...rock or substrate composed of calcareous substances like limestone, coral, shells, dolomite, aragonite. Do you have live plants?

I just skimmed that link, but in very soft acidic water or with plants it is a very different issue.

So, I realized I never updated my location. I am currently in the San Francisco Bay Area. I attached a screenshot of the most recent results from my water utility. Would these high pH readings explain it?

 

[TacomaToker]

With nitrates that high check filter for excess organics and clean with water, do large water change and thorough gravel vac. Only way to get rid of nitrates is to remove from water and replace with new nitrate free water and live plants will also absorb some nitrates.

As far as I'm concerned, the tank is using an under gravel filter. I don't really understand how that works, and I don't see how I could go about checking it for excess organics or cleaning it...

 

[utahfish]

As far as I'm concerned, the tank is using an under gravel filter. I don't really understand how that works, and I don't see how I could go about checking it for excess organics or cleaning it...

Hmmm...under gravel filters usually have a grate that lies on the bottom of the tank with gravel on top. These grates have been known to get clogged with junk which could be contributing to high nitrates. Cleaning would entail removing the grate which would mean removing gravel which would mean pretty much redoing tank. Thats the only way i know.

 

[Byron]

I do have live plants. A couple Amazon swords, and various other small and medium sized plants.


So, I realized I never updated my location. I am currently in the San Francisco Bay Area. I attached a screenshot of the most recent results from my water utility. Would these high pH readings explain it?

Now we are getting somewhere. The pH is high (9.5) but the GH is less than 1 dGH and the Alkalinity is just under 1 dKH (mg/l = ppm, and you divide ppm by 17.9 to get the equivalent in degrees; both ppm and dGH/dKH are common in the hobby). The pH will tend to lower in the aquarium as organics accumulate and decompose, so that is why the pH is down in the 7's. It will go lower over time as the GH and KH have little buffering here. Soft water fish species will thrive, but do not get any hard water fish like livebearers.

The plants should handle the ammonia. The cycling bacteria will establish so long as the pH is above 6 anyway.

Nitrates, agree with utahfish. These must be lowered, and more maintenance is the only way as they are occurring within the aquarium and not entering via the source water. And keep the gravel bed very clean.

 

[TacomaToker]

Now we are getting somewhere. The pH is high (9.5) but the GH is less than 1 dGH and the Alkalinity is just under 1 dKH (mg/l = ppm, and you divide ppm by 17.9 to get the equivalent in degrees; both ppm and dGH/dKH are common in the hobby). The pH will tend to lower in the aquarium as organics accumulate and decompose, so that is why the pH is down in the 7's. It will go lower over time as the GH and KH have little buffering here. Soft water fish species will thrive, but do not get any hard water fish like livebearers.

The plants should handle the ammonia. The cycling bacteria will establish so long as the pH is above 6 anyway.

Nitrates, agree with utahfish. These must be lowered, and more maintenance is the only way as they are occurring within the aquarium and not entering via the source water. And keep the gravel bed very clean.

Thanks for the great help. I did about a 50% water change yesterday as ammonia levels were at about .6-.7. This morning they are the same level, so I will go ahead with another water change. Should I do more than 50%? And should I do another water change tonight if ammonia levels are still up?

Also, I am using Prime as a conditioner for new water, is that alright? Thank you.

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the great help. I did about a 50% water change yesterday as ammonia levels were at about .6-.7. This morning they are the same level, so I will go ahead with another water change. Should I do more than 50%? And should I do another water change tonight if ammonia levels are still up?

Also, I am using Prime as a conditioner for new water, is that alright? Thank you.

As was mentioned, the under-gravel filter may be the reason for the high nitrates. Thorough gravel vacuuming with the water changing unit can help. I used to put a hose down the air lift tube and suck out as much of the detritus as possible.

I am not a fan of Prime. Reason being that it does more than usually required, and that just means more chemicals getting inside the fish. If one has ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the source (tap) water, a conditioner like Prime (Ultimate is another) can benefit because it will detoxify the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate coming in with the fresh water. This is temporary, but by the time Prime's effectiveness is gone (24-36 hours) the plants and bacteria should be able to deal with it. When one of these three is occurring within the aquarium, Prime is not a treatment.

Water conditioners should do what you need, and no more as much as this is possible. Most deal with chlorine and chloramine, and most also heavy metals. This is all you hopefully need. Any further additives are not beneficial, and may be quite the opposite. Substances added to the tank water get inside the fish, that is the issue; the fewer the better, and only those absolutely essential. The more additives the fish have to contend with, the more likely they are to have problems going forward.

 

[TacomaToker]

As was mentioned, the under-gravel filter may be the reason for the high nitrates. Thorough gravel vacuuming with the water changing unit can help. I used to put a hose down the air lift tube and suck out as much of the detritus as possible.

I am not a fan of Prime. Reason being that it does more than usually required, and that just means more chemicals getting inside the fish. If one has ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the source (tap) water, a conditioner like Prime (Ultimate is another) can benefit because it will detoxify the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate coming in with the fresh water. This is temporary, but by the time Prime's effectiveness is gone (24-36 hours) the plants and bacteria should be able to deal with it. When one of these three is occurring within the aquarium, Prime is not a treatment.

Water conditioners should do what you need, and no more as much as this is possible. Most deal with chlorine and chloramine, and most also heavy metals. This is all you hopefully need. Any further additives are not beneficial, and may be quite the opposite. Substances added to the tank water get inside the fish, that is the issue; the fewer the better, and only those absolutely essential. The more additives the fish have to contend with, the more likely they are to have problems going forward.

Gotcha, that all makes sense. I've just got a couple more questions..

What are your recommended water conditioners?

Since my water contains Chloramine, does that mean the ammonia test kit will always pick up high levels of (harmless?) ammonia after a water change?

 

[Byron]

What are your recommended water conditioners?

API Tap Water Conditioner. I have used others over many years, but after my research several years ago from which I learned how really detrimentally significant all these chemicals we tend to dump into an aquarium can be--and rarely doing what we add them for which makes it even worse--I changed to the API. It deals with chlorine and chloramine and heavy metals. These are basic for any good conditioner, but at this point we really break ground. There are no "mystery" claims, no messing with the nitrifying biology, no gumming up fish gills with aloe vera, etc, etc. And, equally important, it is highly concentrated so you use considerably less than most other products. One drop treats a gallon, 2 drops if chloramine is present. For chlorine, this is even more concentrated than Prime which requires 1 ml per 10 gallons while the API is 1 ml per 20 gallons. When it comes down to using half as much...healthier fish and less expense.

Since my water contains Chloramine, does that mean the ammonia test kit will always pick up high levels of (harmless?) ammonia after a water change?

Yes. Chloramine is chlorine bonded to ammonia, developed because it does not dissipate out of the water like chlorine does and is therefore more effective over long distances (water pipes). We have had several threads over the past few months about ammonia testing at 0.25, and most of us think this is the chloramine bonding issue. If you have live plants, especially floating this is certainly not worth worrying about.

 

[TacomaToker]

API Tap Water Conditioner. I have used others over many years, but after my research several years ago from which I learned how really detrimentally significant all these chemicals we tend to dump into an aquarium can be--and rarely doing what we add them for which makes it even worse--I changed to the API. It deals with chlorine and chloramine and heavy metals. These are basic for any good conditioner, but at this point we really break ground. There are no "mystery" claims, no messing with the nitrifying biology, no gumming up fish gills with aloe vera, etc, etc. And, equally important, it is highly concentrated so you use considerably less than most other products. One drop treats a gallon, 2 drops if chloramine is present. For chlorine, this is even more concentrated than Prime which requires 1 ml per 10 gallons while the API is 1 ml per 20 gallons. When it comes down to using half as much...healthier fish and less expense.



Yes. Chloramine is chlorine bonded to ammonia, developed because it does not dissipate out of the water like chlorine does and is therefore more effective over long distances (water pipes). We have had several threads over the past few months about ammonia testing at 0.25, and most of us think this is the chloramine bonding issue. If you have live plants, especially floating this is certainly not worth worrying about.

Awesome, thank you. So how often should I be doing water changes during this fish-in cycle? So far, the fish have been in there for 5 days and ammonia is consistently hovering at roughly .5-.6 despite daily water changes. Should I start doing water changes twice daily?

 

[JuiceBox52]

Awesome, thank you. So how often should I be doing water changes during this fish-in cycle? So far, the fish have been in there for 5 days and ammonia is consistently hovering at roughly .5-.6 despite daily water changes. Should I start doing water changes twice daily?

What size water change are you doing?

 

[Byron]

Awesome, thank you. So how often should I be doing water changes during this fish-in cycle? So far, the fish have been in there for 5 days and ammonia is consistently hovering at roughly .5-.6 despite daily water changes. Should I start doing water changes twice daily?

Considering my previous posts and the data you provided...I would ignore the ammonia at this low a level, you have live plants and if they are showing signs of growth, no problem. The nitrates must be lowered, so water changes and deep gravel cleaning can (should) achieve this. A substantial W/C each day (50-70% of the tank) until nitrates are within reason is fine, then once a week regularly. Hopefully nitrates willnot rise between water changes.

 

[TacomaToker]

Considering my previous posts and the data you provided...I woudl ignore the ammonia at this low a level, you have live plants and if they are showing signs of growth, no problem. The nitrates must be lowered, so water changes and deep gravel cleaning can (should) achieve this. A substantial W/C each day (50-70% of the tank) until nitrates are within reason is fine, then once a week regularly. Hopefully nitrates willnot rise between water changes.

Sorry, I know this post has been running for a few days and it’s a bit convoluted, but I’ve got 2 tanks going. One is new, it has only about 5ppm Nitrates currently. This tank has not yet begun to cycle as far as I’m concerned. Still 0 Nitrites.

I have another long established tank ive just taken over, and it’s got incredibly high nitrate. Going for a full cleaning of the under gravel grate soon. But regardless, these are different tanks and different battles. Thanks again for your help