Broad-spectrum parasite treatment

[confused_aquarist]

My fish seem to be suffering from some kind of a dormant gill parasite. I’m managing to keep its levels down low enough for symptoms to not show except for some occasional gill flashing- once per every 2 or 3 days in any 1 out of 22 fish over the course of half a year- very widespread but mild. However I did experience a recent fish death due to what appeared to be severe bullying stress.

Attempts to diagnose or identify the pathogen have been unsuccessful, and I don’t presume there will be any successes in the future. However I want to rid of the parasite if all possible so as to avoid future problems (e.g. when fish are old and immune system is weaker).

1. What is the best broad spectrum treatment you know of that can target fluke and protozoan parasites at the same time?
2. I have heard that formalin is an option- should malachite green be added in conjunction?
3. For formalin, is it better to perform short bath at high concentration or long bath at low concentration?
4. Fish is small and fragile- would antibiotics be recommended to add in conjunction so as to prevent secondary bacterial infections from parasite attachment wounds

Thank you in advance for any inputs

 

[GaryE]

Is it the E. annulatus/clown killies again?

My input would be to do nothing. Mild occasioanal flashing like that doesn't sound like a gill parasite to me. It isn't one you can identify, and there are no broad spectrum anti parasitics. You have to know in general what you are attacking, and target. Otherwise, you do more harm than good. You attack the fish while fighting shadows.

Formalin is deadly stuff - and is used for Oodinium and related parasites. Flashing isn't a symptom. I'm not afraid to use a potent med when it's needed, but what you describe isn't a need in my eyes.

Flukes? Could be, but that would be a different class of treatments, and again, not one without a cost to the fish.

Antibiotics should never be used without a firm diagnosis behind them. I have kept and bred killies for 35 years, and have never used an antibiotic on them. I never will. Antibiotic overuse is a serious issue.

Keep your water clean and appropriate for the species. If there is a parasite problem, you will eventually know which. I'll wager the fish are fine.

 

[seaweeds]

I used api general cure with flubendazole on new quarantine fishes. For antibiotic, I use API Erythromycin. I used the dose on the label. It can be hard because my tank is not the size on label so I eyeball it. Those medication are general safe if use at dosage or under dose.

edit: I forgot to mentioned. Do not mix Api E.M with Api General cure and dose it at the same time. Fishes will have a hard time breathing and will die. You can mix general cure with other antiparasite just fine but not with antibiotics. Depends of fishes though, some might be able to survive it especially hardy labyrinth organ fishes but most sick fishes will not.

 

[MaloK]

Under dose for too short periods...

Is a very good way to create super resistant strains.

Like in the movies.

 

[GaryE]

Under dose for too short periods...

Is a very good way to create super resistant strains.

Like in the movies.

Increasingly, in hospitals, not in movies.

 

[Colin_T]

If you want to treat external protozoa, use Malachite Green.

If you want to treat gill flukes and intestinal worms, use Flubendazole.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Is it the E. annulatus/clown killies again?

My input would be to do nothing. Mild occasioanal flashing like that doesn't sound like a gill parasite to me. It isn't one you can identify, and there are no broad spectrum anti parasitics. You have to know in general what you are attacking, and target. Otherwise, you do more harm than good. You attack the fish while fighting shadows.

Formalin is deadly stuff - and is used for Oodinium and related parasites. Flashing isn't a symptom. I'm not afraid to use a potent med when it's needed, but what you describe isn't a need in my eyes.

Flukes? Could be, but that would be a different class of treatments, and again, not one without a cost to the fish.

Antibiotics should never be used without a firm diagnosis behind them. I have kept and bred killies for 35 years, and have never used an antibiotic on them. I never will. Antibiotic overuse is a serious issue.

Keep your water clean and appropriate for the species. If there is a parasite problem, you will eventually know which. I'll wager the fish are fine.

Yes, it's them! I've been growing increasingly paranoid ever since last death, because the bullied individual clearly showed increased flashing (once every minute) after PraziPro treatment. Which I suspected might be due to bacterial infection from detachment wounds. It is so hard to diagnose gill disease, I cannot take a biopsy because the fish is so small. It eventually succumbed with mouth wide open and unable to close.
I think the only reason the remaining fish are alive is because water changes are so frequent. I also use UV sterilizer in main tank (but not quarantine tank).

 

[GaryE]

The mouth wide open upon death thing is something I have seen often. It has never been from something that spread. It struck individuals.

I doubt such a symptom would be from only one cause, but I have wondered of it could be the result of a cancer or a growth. It's not treatable in my experience. I have not seen it turn into identifiable gill parasites in the other fish.

When fish are so small, we are blind. It's good you have the lab skills to do biopsies - few aquarists have that. But you're right - tiny fish.

I'll offer a philosophical approach, aimed at you and not really at your fish. I believe we should all do our best to provide fish with environments that they can thrive in. But some fish won't thrive, no matter what. Their bodies are incredibly complex, and our knowledge is not. We tend to reduce the possibility of what goes wrong to simple processes we can fight with crude tools. Half a dozen parasites, when there are many many more. Half a dozen named bacteria, when the world of bacteria is infinitely complex. We don't even like to mention viruses, because we don't know how to treat them. We pretend they aren't there. A common and deadly disease like Mycobacteriosis is talked about as a rarity, or in extreme cases, its existence is denied. It is only in the past couple of years we could discuss Mycobacter on forums without people getting angry at the idea. It's threatening. It's the COVID of fish diseases, except it can't be treated.

We can't target antibiotics well, so we buy them and throw them at disease. The fish rarely recover, but the resistant bacteria are given a chance to develop. We have some anti-parasitics that are good, if we identify the parasite correctly. Almost everything we can cure is an external parasite. It's all we can see.

What medical skills we have work best on larger fish, as we are visual animals.

This is a terrible hobby for people who want to control their world. It doesn't obey. We're actually fairly powerless faced with fish disease, and we have to accept that. Make a good tank for annulatus. Enjoy them. They are short lived, and some will die sooner than others. If the tank is right and they breed, they will be there for as long as you work a little on their environment. I have killie species I've kept for 32 years, with individuals living 2 to 3 years. They are wonderful as individual fish, but also as a process, a flow of life.

We have the medical resources of the average medieval priest with our fish. Don't try to treat what you can't see, or you may become the health problem for them. You can stress over problems, but if they are there, they will manifest themselves undeniably. Until they do, you don't have enough knowledge to do anything. Your fish could be flashing from parasites, from water conditions, from the chemical composition of your clean water, from a virus, from nothing much at all. When I see fish flashing, I watch them closely. Most of the time, they stop doing it on their own.

 

[confused_aquarist]

The mouth wide open upon death thing is something I have seen often. It has never been from something that spread. It struck individuals.

I doubt such a symptom would be from only one cause, but I have wondered of it could be the result of a cancer or a growth. It's not treatable in my experience. I have not seen it turn into identifiable gill parasites in the other fish.

When fish are so small, we are blind. It's good you have the lab skills to do biopsies - few aquarists have that. But you're right - tiny fish.

I'll offer a philosophical approach, aimed at you and not really at your fish. I believe we should all do our best to provide fish with environments that they can thrive in. But some fish won't thrive, no matter what. Their bodies are incredibly complex, and our knowledge is not. We tend to reduce the possibility of what goes wrong to simple processes we can fight with crude tools. Half a dozen parasites, when there are many many more. Half a dozen named bacteria, when the world of bacteria is infinitely complex. We don't even like to mention viruses, because we don't know how to treat them. We pretend they aren't there. A common and deadly disease like Mycobacteriosis is talked about as a rarity, or in extreme cases, its existence is denied. It is only in the past couple of years we could discuss Mycobacter on forums without people getting angry at the idea. It's threatening. It's the COVID of fish diseases, except it can't be treated.

We can't target antibiotics well, so we buy them and throw them at disease. The fish rarely recover, but the resistant bacteria are given a chance to develop. We have some anti-parasitics that are good, if we identify the parasite correctly. Almost everything we can cure is an external parasite. It's all we can see.

What medical skills we have work best on larger fish, as we are visual animals.

This is a terrible hobby for people who want to control their world. It doesn't obey. We're actually fairly powerless faced with fish disease, and we have to accept that. Make a good tank for annulatus. Enjoy them. They are short lived, and some will die sooner than others. If the tank is right and they breed, they will be there for as long as you work a little on their environment. I have killie species I've kept for 32 years, with individuals living 2 to 3 years. They are wonderful as individual fish, but also as a process, a flow of life.

We have the medical resources of the average medieval priest with our fish. Don't try to treat what you can't see, or you may become the health problem for them. You can stress over problems, but if they are there, they will manifest themselves undeniably. Until they do, you don't have enough knowledge to do anything. Your fish could be flashing from parasites, from water conditions, from the chemical composition of your clean water, from a virus, from nothing much at all. When I see fish flashing, I watch them closely. Most of the time, they stop doing it on their own.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, they are quite eye opening and I think there are many good points, especially there being general denial for many diseases that one cannot see including mycobacteria, viruse, etc. It's true I may have become too paranoid to see a fish dying from such horrid way of death, it was my first fry and actually very painful, so I try as best as possible to not waste the experience and to prevent future problems.

At first, when I discovered this fish being bullied it was still eating perfectly, with nipped fin recovering within the same day so I did not worry very much. Eventually it started to take U-turns while feeding so that was when I decided to isolate it to hospital tank- and thought, it would be nice to test PraziPro on this individual to see if it would resolve flashing problem- and instead, it made it much much worse, and who would have thought this would within a couple of days turn into a full-blown gill disease. It was and still is very mysterious to me.

For now I think I may indeed be the problem rather than the solution, so I am not going to do anything. Probably, I will reserve flubendazole/praziquantel treatment for when there is a full blown plague in the tank, otherwise it seems they are managing fine with the parasite for now.