Bolivian ram sexing?

[Seisage]

As my new ram has been settling in, I've been debating with myself a little bit about its sex. I'm fairly sure it's a female, but considering I don't know its age, I suppose there's a chance it could be an immature male.

Points in favor of female:
- Relatively larger vent size. It seems like most males have minuscule vents, at least in photos
- Overall rounded head shape
- Lack of strong black coloration on the first three dorsal fin rays
- Lack of notable elongation of the third dorsal fin ray
- Lack of caudal fin trailers, or even the beginnings of them?
- Anal fin is short in length

Points in favor of male:
- A couple examples of males did have similar-looking vents to this fish
- Fairly pointy pelvic fins
- If this is a juvenile, I'm thinking it's possible that certain characteristics like fin shapes/colors might not be displayed in males until maturity. Is this accurate for rams?


But what do you all think?

 

[Naughts]

Does she have ich?

 

[Seisage]

Does she have ich?

If you're referring to the two spots on her anal fin, then no, I'm fairly sure those aren't ich. I've dealt with ich before and these spots don't look like any ich I've seen. Any other white "spots" on her in the photos would just be light reflecting off of scales or fin rays.

In person, the spots on the anal fin appear simply as lighter colored patches of skin. They aren't raised, or fuzzy, or anything that would remind me of an infection. It's really strange. They're translucent and iridescent and shimmer as the fin moves, just like the rest of the fin membrane does. You can sort of see their translucency in the first photo. I'm not sure why they appear so opaque in the second photo.
I'm keeping an eye on them, but they haven't changed or grown at all in the week since I got her, nor has she developed more of them. If they continue to stay as they are, then I'll be inclined to believe they're just odd discolorations or perhaps old injuries to the fin.

 

[GaryE]

I'm inclined to say 'she', but I agree the fish is very young and I suspect the jury may still be out.

The spots look to be on the fin rays, and those are often cysts from minor injuries, rather than from parasites. All you can do is watch them.

I've never liked the idea of calling them rams. They come from a great distance away from Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, and not just in terms of km. They are really different in their needs as well. It appears Mikrogeophagus must have had a wide distribution in the past, and probably, a whole bunch of species between altispinosus and ramirezi (Bolivia and Venezuela) are extinct. They tell a mysterious story.

Altis were described in 1911, and rams in 1948, but rams hit the hobby first. When the two distinct colour morphs of altispinosus arrived, they were marketed as rams, but with the big differences in their needs, I don't think that was helpful.

 

[JackGulley]

Two distinct color morphs?

 

[Back in the fold]

Now I have to look up Bolivian Ram . The times I had Rams one of them was kind of washed out in the coloration but others were definitely Ramirezi . I’m always the last one to find this stuff out .

 

[GaryE]

Two distinct color morphs?

The first Bolivians I had were a fantastic blue, green and yellow pearl-sheened fish. Most of the ones we see now are different - a browner fish with a beautiful neon red dorsal line, but not a lot else. I've seen the blue one in stores a couple of times since then (around 1995...) but the brown form is what most of us think the fish is.

Someone must have studied this, but I've never seen much on it to know if the places of capture are different - I would assume so. But that's just a guess.

 

[Seisage]

I'm inclined to say 'she', but I agree the fish is very young and I suspect the jury may still be out.

That was my suspicion as well. Glad to have a second opinion. Just a waiting game at this point, then. I'm excited to watch this fish color up, at least to the extent that it can.

The spots look to be on the fin rays, and those are often cysts from minor injuries, rather than from parasites. All you can do is watch them.

In person, it's a little hard to tell where exactly on the fin they are. The fin rays are surprisingly delicate, and the constant movement of the fin required to maintain the impressive sort of hovering they do makes it tougher than expected to get a good look. But yes, I do suspect they are some sort of fin ray injury. They don't look much at all like the injury cyst that my oldest neon has, but there's little else I could explain these spots with.

I've never liked the idea of calling them rams. They come from a great distance away from Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, and not just in terms of km. They are really different in their needs as well. It appears Mikrogeophagus must have had a wide distribution in the past, and probably, a whole bunch of species between altispinosus and ramirezi (Bolivia and Venezuela) are extinct. They tell a mysterious story.

Altis were described in 1911, and rams in 1948, but rams hit the hobby first. When the two distinct colour morphs of altispinosus arrived, they were marketed as rams, but with the big differences in their needs, I don't think that was helpful.

This is really interesting, thanks for the history. I had no idea bolivians had two different morphs, and I'm disappointed that the more colorful one seems to have phased out of the hobby. I agree regarding the distribution of the genus. I know not much about Mikrogeophagus taxonomy, but considering how fluid cichlid speciation is in general, I'm sure there were many other members of the genus at one point. I won't be surprised if there are more within just the next couple hundred years.

I also don't particularly like that they're called "rams". I see the two species confused all the time on other forums. Everyone always thinks of the germans (also a ridiculous name. I know the history of it, but they ought to be called Venezuelan or Colombian rams, in my opinion). Even when I was requesting this fish over the phone, the man in charge of fish orders initially asked me if I wanted blue or gold. I had to stop him and reiterate "no, the bolivian one". I learned that the shop doesn't have scientific names on their fish list.