black phantom problems again

[Briarmoor]

I did a larger than usual water change last week in the 55g (about 10 gallon change) and the next day a couple of the Phantoms were gulping, same symptoms as what I thought was dropsy before. pH is high with my local water around 7.8 or more at times.

Since I read that pH can fall in older tanks, could I have added new tap water (conditioned) that had that much higher a pH? I am suspicious that these problems seem to follow PWCs. The black neons seemed slightly stressed too but have bounced back. The gouramis are fine as usual and always waiting for a meal. Pleco is usual non-stop eating self.

Also, the male Phantom has better color when the tank lights are off. He gets dull when they lights are on. Ever heard of that? He wasn't like that in the beginning.

The gouramis can be pushy with each other, but none bother the tetras so I don't know how they could be stressed by their tank mates. They are getting their share of food.

Water parameters are good, nitrates below 40, nitrite and ammonia zero. Moderate buffering. Water soft.

What the heck is going on

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Sounds like he could be stressed out if its just tempory color fading throught certain times of day- you don't have many tetras to your shoal and you have a rather spacious tank, i would increase the amount of tetras you have of both species by 2-3 each as they'll feel more secure that way .

 

[Lateral Line]

Just a thought, the water you are adding, is it cold?

 

[Briarmoor]

It seems like I add a couple of tetras only to have one or two go downhill a month later. I wanted a school of 6. It is crazy. I'm adding water that is as warm to a couple of degrees warmer than the tank. This is driving me nuts!

The 2 giant female gouarmis I added are both gaining color and growing finnage, so they seem to thrive in that tank. Even though the opaline chases them some.

The 5 regular neons in the 20g thrive and aren't affected by water changes. They are tetras too. I just don't get it. I may give up on Phantoms and not add anymore and gradually move over to neon rainbows in there.

The LFS guy said most phantoms are still wild caught and thus more suseptible to water parameters changing. He said they artificially lower the pH in their tanks. I know folks here don't support doing that. Should I try? Are tetras tolerant of blackwater extract? Would that be safer? I see a product called 7.0 but have tried to stay away from chemicals, maybe I need to use some?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Can you tell us what your ph was before and what it is now?

 

[Briarmoor]

Can you tell us what your ph was before and what it is now?

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My pH is always pretty high, I don't check all the time, but last time I did it was 7.4-7.5. After the PWC and the fish gulping, I checked it again and it was close to 7.8-8. This just seems too high for some fish to do well, this is also the sentiment of the LFS and the reason they lower their pH with chemicals. They are on the same water supply I am and their phantoms are lovely in their artificially lowered pH tanks. Maybe I should just get a cichlid tank.

 

[Lateral Line]

It suprises me that an lfs would lower their pH to start with, and lowering it with chemicals would be most unusual.

The majority of chemicals you just add to tapwater and they move the pH are phosphate based buffers, usually a mixture of Sodium Acid Phosphate and Sodium Alkali Phoshate which mixed in various combinations can give a pH throughout the normal tank range. Now, in bulk, these are not that expensive, but in "aquarium" sized quantities, they will work out very expensive. The other big downer with them is that they are absolutely ideal for algal growth, and a bright green tank can result very quickly.

The correct way to change pH involves removing dissolved salts from the water first, which are causing the high pH, and then rebuffering if necessary with other salts. Again, this can be costly, and in the hands of someone who doesn't understand the chemistry involved, a recipe for disaster. Low or unbuffered water is very unstable and can swing around in pH all over the place down to pH4 for example.

The other point is that 8 is pretty high, but where I lived when I was in England, the tapwater was 8.2 and sometimes higher, (chalk borehole water), and yet I used to keep tetras and other acidophilic fish without real problems.

I wonder if your lfs are just trying to sell you powder...

Perhaps you could try doing smaller but more frequent water changes?

 

[sylvia]

I currently have 5 black phantoms in water with a pH of 7.8. They are all perfectly healthy and thriving. I don't think altering your pH will help and may cause serious issues for your other fish. In particular, I have found gouramies to be rather sensitive to pH swings (though three-spots can handle pretty much anything ).

Perhaps you didn't add the right amount of conditioner? Probably not the problem but it's worth a try.

Test the pH of your tank water and of your tap water and compare them. If they are not the same, this change was the problem. I agree with Lateral Line that it seems far-fetched for your LFS to alter their pH. Maybe try asking them again to see if you get a different answer. If they have all their tanks on the same filter system and yet stock rift lake cichlids and other hard-water species, I doubt they are realy altering that pH.

Also try using a thermometer to make sure the temperatures are exactly the same when you're doing a water change. Normaly a couple of digrees up or down shouldn't be an issue but, if your fish are already stressed over something, this may have made the situation worse.

One last thing it could be is metals or some other substance in your tap water. Many conditioners will remove some of these things and adding carbon to your filter would also help. If you use water from the hot water tap, in particular, this could be the problem (as you say the problems appear after water changes).

 

[Briarmoor]

Thanks for all the suggestions, you guys are the best. I am just disheartened having sick fish and not being able to figure out why.

When I add conditioner, I generally do it by the bucket so no unconditioned water every goes into the tank. I use a 2.5 gallon bucket and so I add enough conditioner for 2-5 gallons as it is hard to figure exactly as the measuring device is for 10 gallons. Should I be using enough for a 55g tank each PWC, or am I doing it right? The bottles always say to add it during changes or when fish are injured, etc. but I thought maybe that was just their way of getting people to use more conditioner. I didn't want to use too much.

I do know there are warnings about our water supply as to pollution and not to eat more than one fish per month out of the TN River here. Could there be a correlation? Wouldnt' the water conditioner take care of some of this? Maybe I should get a water test.

 

[Lateral Line]

Tapwater conditioner products in general are for neutralising Chlorine, and the better ones, Chloramine as well. If you tapwater is polluted with something else, they are unlikely to be affecting it. What is your tapwater polluted with, do you know? Many fish are very sensitive to pollution. Agricultural runoff can be a big source of nitrates in tapwater, if you have a test kit, it might be worth checking your tapwater with that.

You sound as if you are dosing your water fine by the way, it just may not be having the effect you want.

 

[Briarmoor]

When I get back from the National Specialty (one breed week-long dog show I am coordinating), I will try to find a place to check my tap water. I don't have high nitrates, but there are other chemicals in the local water supply and I wonder if something could be affecting the phantoms more than the other fish?

I can't figure out why my blue neons cope so well and thrive in the same water when everyone says they are a difficult fish, yet the phantoms are good for a month then don't do well. It is a puzzle. I use Stress Coat or Start Right as water conditioners.

When I can do some checking, I will get back with the list. I'll be gone 10 days for this and am leaving the husband to take care of the fish. They will all be overfed when I get back. He can't say no to pleading gourami faces.