Best Conditions For Guppies?

[craigieboy01]

Hi, I have a small Fluval edge tank and have just got 5 male Guppies for it (Fishless cycled for nearly 4 months) What is the perfect water condition for them to thrive in??

 

[OldMan47]

Guppies do just fine in ordinary tap water if you do regular water changes and keep the temperature at least into the low 70s F. That means at least 22C but no more than 24C. I am well aware that breeders run their tanks warmer than that, but their focus is rapid growth, not fish health.

 

[craigieboy01]

Guppies do just fine in ordinary tap water if you do regular water changes and keep the temperature at least into the low 70s F. That means at least 22C but no more than 24C. I am well aware that breeders run their tanks warmer than that, but their focus is rapid growth, not fish health.

Hi Oldman47, You were the man I was hoping to get a response from, I have just put a post on the fish emergency section, I have just spent 4 months fishless cycling my Fluval Edge, I think i have done everything right so far, I use an api Master testkit and done the whole qualifying week thing, i then done a 90% water change and replaced with conditioned water, my temperature is 26, Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 40ppm, Ph 7.6. I bought 5 Guppys on Friday, lost 1 on the Sat and then lost 3 this morning, any idea what i'm doing wrong?? Thanks

 

[nmonks]

I'm going disagree slightly here. I think OldMan47 is quite right where wild-type, "feeder", or mixed breed guppies are concerned. But fancy guppies do seem more sensitive to chilling, and I tend to recommend they be kept a bit on the warm side, between 26-30 C. Water quality and water chemistry are other factors of course, and in good conditions temperature may be less important than otherwise.

Maintenance of guppies in slightly brackish water is helpful if you're having problems with them. It isn't essential by any means, but it can be helpful for a variety of reasons. Marine salt mix stabilises pH, raises carbonate hardness, and contains sodium chloride that reduces nitrite and nitrate toxicity. These are crucial factors when keeping mollies, but even with guppies they can make a big difference. If you're only keeping guppies, then the use of marine salt mix is a cheap and easy approach to simplifying things. You don't need much: 2-3 grammes per litre is ample.

For what it's worth, there's some good lab work done on fancy guppies that demonstrates unambiguously that they're less adaptable than crossbreed or wild guppies. For example, in one study wild and feeder guppies were all acclimated safely to full-strength seawater, but fancy guppies died above half-strength seawater. So if you just want some cheap, lively colour, consider getting crossbreed rather than fancy guppies, or better yet, wild guppies (places like Wholesale Tropicals in London get these in periodically).

Cheers, Neale

Guppies do just fine in ordinary tap water if you do regular water changes and keep the temperature at least into the low 70s F. That means at least 22C but no more than 24C. I am well aware that breeders run their tanks warmer than that, but their focus is rapid growth, not fish health.

 

[craigieboy01]

I'm going disagree slightly here. I think OldMan47 is quite right where wild-type, "feeder", or mixed breed guppies are concerned. But fancy guppies do seem more sensitive to chilling, and I tend to recommend they be kept a bit on the warm side, between 26-30 C. Water quality and water chemistry are other factors of course, and in good conditions temperature may be less important than otherwise.

Maintenance of guppies in slightly brackish water is helpful if you're having problems with them. It isn't essential by any means, but it can be helpful for a variety of reasons. Marine salt mix stabilises pH, raises carbonate hardness, and contains sodium chloride that reduces nitrite and nitrate toxicity. These are crucial factors when keeping mollies, but even with guppies they can make a big difference. If you're only keeping guppies, then the use of marine salt mix is a cheap and easy approach to simplifying things. You don't need much: 2-3 grammes per litre is ample.

For what it's worth, there's some good lab work done on fancy guppies that demonstrates unambiguously that they're less adaptable than crossbreed or wild guppies. For example, in one study wild and feeder guppies were all acclimated safely to full-strength seawater, but fancy guppies died above half-strength seawater. So if you just want some cheap, lively colour, consider getting crossbreed rather than fancy guppies, or better yet, wild guppies (places like Wholesale Tropicals in London get these in periodically).

Cheers, Neale

Guppies do just fine in ordinary tap water if you do regular water changes and keep the temperature at least into the low 70s F. That means at least 22C but no more than 24C. I am well aware that breeders run their tanks warmer than that, but their focus is rapid growth, not fish health.

Hi Neale, went back into the P@Home store i got them from and noticed their was only 3 left of which 2 looked as if they were on the road out, after explaining my situation and asking what happened to the rest of them, he said they were probably sold by expect their was something wrong with them when i got them, he came me some vouchers for some fish which was nice of him. I will buy some marine salt and add it to harden the water and hopefully buy some more guppies as thats the fish my neices and nephews want, the guy in the P@H also said i shouldnt really keep Guppies as an initial fish as they are temperamental. Cheers

 

[OldMan47]

I have noticed that Neale promotes the use of salt as a tonic for common livebearers and must say that I find the concept quite foreign. Most of the common livebearers come from native waters that have reasonably high mineral content but do not come from salty environments. The fact that wild type guppies tolerate salt better than a narrow bred group of fish does not surprise me. Wild type fish have a lot more genetic diversity than their highly developed kin. That means that at least some of them are better able to adapt than the highly developed fish. To me, that does not mean that the salt is a worthwhile thing to do but that it is better tolerated by the tougher fish when their water is less than optimum. The idea of common mollies being put into a salt water environment is a neutral one in my book. Common mollies are derived from specie that are very tolerant of salty waters and have been used for generations as fish to cycle a salt water aquarium. The fact that they tolerate huge amounts of salt means that it is a cheap and easy way to avoid a low mineral content water. I raise my mollies in purely fresh water at lower temperatures than many people find advisable and do not experience any health problems with them at all. They are robustly healthy and sell well at club auctions to people who are frequently advanced hobbyists and are able to inspect them at the sale. I have a similar experience selling my common guppies who also live in straight fresh water.
At one point, about 20 years ago, I was using my 120 gallon tank to raise mollies. I intentionally was adding salt to that water, as it was the common wisdom of the day, and I had a lot of disease problems with them that I just do not see today. I cannot blame the illness on the salt but the salt was doing nothing to make their lives any better. By watching my maximum temperatures on livebearers, I find that I seldom ever have any symptoms of poor health, much less any identifiable diseases.
Mollies and guppies are not discus and cannot live well at those ridiculously high temperatures for very long. Among other things, my fish live much longer now that I have backed away from the high temperatures.

 

[nmonks]

I have noticed that Neale promotes the use of salt as a tonic for common livebearers and must say that I find the concept quite foreign.

Neale absolutely does NOT do this! I'm quite against the idea of "tonics" in fishkeeping!

My argument about mollies is this: I agree they don't come from brackish water for the most part, and wild populations seem just fine in freshwater. But my experience at Wet Web Media is that a LOT of people have problems keeping mollies alive for any length of time. For casual aquarists, the fact marine salt mix raises carbonate hardness and steadies a basic pH around 7.5 is useful. By telling them to add a little marine salt mix they can create conditions that mollies thrive in. That there's also salt in the marine mix is somewhat secondary, though sodium chloride does reduces nitrate and nitrite toxicity, and that in itself may be very helpful where inexperienced aquarists are concerned. So purely as a practical, humane approach, the use of marine salt mix -- and note I stress the use of marine salt mix, not plain aquarium salt -- is I believe the quickest and easiest way to help beginners keep their mollies happy.

As for guppies, I can see both sides of the argument. But again, more often than not, where wimpy fancy guppies are concerned, raising the temperature and adding a little marine salt mix can nudge conditions towards those that ensure better health. Is it essential? Absolutely not. Do guppies need to be kept in brackish water? No. Am I arguing simply for the use of salt as a tonic? No. It's the fact marine salt mix raises hardness and pH that I believe is of prime value, and the detoxification of nitrite and nitrate a secondary one. But this is all based on science, and not some hand-waving idea about slime coats or osmotic balance or any such thing!

The fact your mollies and guppies are healthy in cooler, freshwater conditions means -- in my opinion -- you're a good fishkeeper. You know what you're doing and you're ensuring good conditions via water changes, proper filtration, a healthy diet, and appropriate sized aquaria. Like you, I keep my livebearers in non-brackish conditions. I have both Ameca splendens and Limia nigrofasciata happily breeding away in moderately hard, slightly basic water -- a 50/50 mix of tap water and rainwater. Indeed, the latter species are in the same tank as my Nomorhamphus halfbeaks, and both are breeding happily.

But my advice here and in magazine articles is, when it comes to mollies, that less experienced aquarists can "play it safe" by using marine salt mix and slightly warm water conditions, certainly warmer than platies and swordtails enjoy. Put another way, creating slightly brackish conditions doesn't harm guppies or mollies, so there's nothing to lose. Keep those guppies or mollies in plain freshwater, and many aquarists find they get sick. It's a no-brainer for me: add a little marine salt mix, and see if that helps!

Cheers, Neale

 

[stang1]

I'm hoping that Neale or Oldman may be able to have a little input on a Molly question.
I was told by someone I hold in high regard that Poecilia Sphenops are a true freshwater Molly, would you agree?
The reason I ask is since I was told this, I only order that type of Molly in now and very rarely suffer from any losses. When I used to stock the Velifera and Latipinna variety, they would often suffer from whitespot and we would lose a lot of them.
I have no reason to doubt what I have been told as the Sphenops have never suffered from whitespot or disease. Just curious as to your opinion as there seems little info regarding this on the internet.
Thanks

 

[nmonks]

The thing is that they're *all* true freshwater fish, in the wild at least. The sailfin mollies Poecilia latipinna and Poecilia velifera are, to be sure, strongly associated with coastal areas, but not necessarily in brackish water. On the other hand, both these species are common in brackish water and in certain places found in seawater. Not in deep water, but in fully marine salinities nonetheless.

For what it's worth, of all the traded mollies, I'd argue the liberty molly Poecilia salvatoris is the one that's least fussy, perhaps because it's been less inbred than any of the others. On the other hand, I've always felt sailfin mollies generally do better in at least slightly brackish water. The sailfin mollies of the trade are probably hybrids, though they're more Poecilia latipinna than anything else. The shortfin mollies, even the black molly, are said to be Poecilia sphenops rather than hybrids with Poecilia mexicana, but I don't know how true that is. In any event, they're perhaps a bit less touchy about water chemistry than the sailfin mollies.

Cheers, Neale

I'm hoping that Neale or Oldman may be able to have a little input on a Molly question.
I was told by someone I hold in high regard that Poecilia Sphenops are a true freshwater Molly, would you agree?
The reason I ask is since I was told this, I only order that type of Molly in now and very rarely suffer from any losses. When I used to stock the Velifera and Latipinna variety, they would often suffer from whitespot and we would lose a lot of them.
I have no reason to doubt what I have been told as the Sphenops have never suffered from whitespot or disease. Just curious as to your opinion as there seems little info regarding this on the internet.
Thanks

 

[stang1]

Thanks for taking the time to answer Neale, you know I value your opinion.
I suppose the biggest problem with most fish, espeially livebearers, is the inbreeding and the fact that there are so many hybrids. I think I'll stick to the Sphenops for now and hope they stay as hardy as they have been.
I'd love to get the salvatoris in but they seem to cost a pretty penny!

 

[drobbyb]

For the sake of argument, would other methods of raising carbonate hardness without adding sodium chloride to the tank be viable?

 

[OldMan47]

The easiest way that I know of to raise carbonate hardness and pH is to add some crushed shell or crushed coral to the filter's flow path. A little of the calcium carbonate dissolves if the water is at all low in minerals and raises both the pH and KH of the water. It also starts to raise the GH of the water. The only down side that I know of is that the mineral calcium carbonate continues to dissolve and a water change to control the final value must be done at regular intervals. If you have water conditions that suit your fish, it is far better to accept the water you have than to start tinkering with water qualities. When you set out to change the water from what comes out of your faucet, you must be prepared to continue to do so indefinitely. That may seem a bit harsh but it is the reality of things. I raise and breed not only the common livebearers but over a dozen of the harder to find goodeids, like the Amecas that Neale mentioned. Goodeids and Limias along with most common livebearers do great in my tap water, after it is simply dechlorinated. Many cichlids and tetras require that I mix in lots of RO or rain water so I do not breed many of those. My liquid rock suits certain fish, and when I keep those fish things are great with little effort on my part.
The biggest question I would have for Stang is where the heck do you find any sphenops. I have some P caucana and plenty of fish shop fish but have never seen a sphenops in any shop or even at a place like the ALA convention. Even latipinna and velifera are far easier to find.

 

[nmonks]

Yes, and if the water was sufficiently hard, nitrate-free, and I'd argue warm, guppies and mollies should thrive. I am not a fan of incorporating calcareous material in aquaria for a variety of reasons. One of the chief issues is that it's unpredictable, and after a few months or years its efficacy can slow down as the calcareous material becomes covered with algae and organic slime. It's not uncommon for tanks set up with coral sand undergravel filters to have nice hard water for years, and then crash once this problem reaches a critical level. Another problem is it limits your scope for decorating the tank, and things like white tufa rock aren't very pretty.

So I prefer to use a Rift Valley salt mix. An old DIY mix that costs pennies a month is the following. For a Rift Valley cichlid aquarium, to each 5 gallons/20 litres you would add:

• 1 teaspoon baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, for carbonate hardness)
• 1 tablespoon Epsom salt (magnesium sulphate, for general hardness)
• 1 teaspoon marine salt mix (for various other essential minerals)

A livebearer tank wouldn't need quite so much unless the water was very soft, so a half dose should be ample, i.e., the above recipe, but per 10 gallons/40 litres. You can use your test kits to check the resulting pH, general hardness and carbonate hardness. Tweak the amounts of the three components up or down as required to get what you're after. Once you've established the ideal dosage, you can add that amount to every water change. Easy as pie!

Cheers, Neale

For the sake of argument, would other methods of raising carbonate hardness without adding sodium chloride to the tank be viable?

 

[stang1]

The easiest way that I know of to raise carbonate hardness and pH is to add some crushed shell or crushed coral to the filter's flow path. A little of the calcium carbonate dissolves if the water is at all low in minerals and raises both the pH and KH of the water. It also starts to raise the GH of the water. The only down side that I know of is that the mineral calcium carbonate continues to dissolve and a water change to control the final value must be done at regular intervals. If you have water conditions that suit your fish, it is far better to accept the water you have than to start tinkering with water qualities. When you set out to change the water from what comes out of your faucet, you must be prepared to continue to do so indefinitely. That may seem a bit harsh but it is the reality of things. I raise and breed not only the common livebearers but over a dozen of the harder to find goodeids, like the Amecas that Neale mentioned. Goodeids and Limias along with most common livebearers do great in my tap water, after it is simply dechlorinated. Many cichlids and tetras require that I mix in lots of RO or rain water so I do not breed many of those. My liquid rock suits certain fish, and when I keep those fish things are great with little effort on my part.
The biggest question I would have for Stang is where the heck do you find any sphenops. I have some P caucana and plenty of fish shop fish but have never seen a sphenops in any shop or even at a place like the ALA convention. Even latipinna and velifera are far easier to find.

Hi Oldman, good to see you've been made up to moderator and good to see you still on here.
The fish are ordered in as sphenops, as to whether they truly are is a different matter. All I know is when we stock these ones, we have very few problems. They don't suffer from whitespot or bacterial infections and the losses are minimal.
I can try and get a pic at some point if that would help with ID?

 

[Fantail_John]

What happen to not adding salt to fresh water fish? lol