Bba And Excel

[zig]

Hi guys

Ive been doing some algae experiments in my 40 gallon tank with Flourish Excel and bba, the type of bba i have is black brush algae as opposed to black beard algae (there is a difference ) i also have a small amount of green fuzz type algae but very little.

About a month ago i first noticed the bba it was a tiny amount to begin with, it started to grow on a section of my hairgrass or lilaeopsis basiliensis, at first i just observed it for a week or so and it didnt do very much, after about two weeks it started too grow alarmingly rapidly and spread further among the hairgrass and at this stage because i dont have pressurised co2 i ordered the Flourish Excel to stop it in its tracks.

Ive been recommending to people on this board to dose the Excel at 3x the recommended amount, in other words to overdose the Excel, overdosing by this amount can be a little bit risky to your fish so i wanted to do an experiment on my own bba by overdosing the excel at a lower amount (and therefore lowering the risk to the livestock) just to see if it worked, even if it took longer to kill the bba i figured it would be worth it, if it meant a safer enviroment for the fish during the overdosing treatment, and of course the idea was that i and others would then know that dosing at 2x the recommended amount worked as effectively as overdosing 3x, and could suggest this to others in future knowing the risks would be lessened.

So far this is just an experiment but it seems to be working, the bba is taking on a reddish hue which is a good sign, i expect it to get at least twice as red over the next few days before it starts to die off, the green fuzz algae has totally disappeared as well which i half expected would happen as well (although no pics of that im afraid, it wasnt very much anyway) the only side effect from the treatment i have noticed so far is that my tank water went slightly cloudy or hazy for about 2 days, but now it is totally crystal clear again.

Anyway heres a couple of pics of the same spot in the tank taken 5 days apart where the bba was worst, the first shot is taken the first day of treatment, the other shot i have taken this evening Day 5, sorry the pics are not a bit better as its not my camera im not totally used to it, also i might add these shots are hugely magnified, my bba problem is not as bad at all as it looks in these pics, i just wanted to show you what to expect if you ever have to use this treatment.

Also i just want to say before everybody that comes into this section of the forum looking for a fix for algae and sees this thread and thinks to themselves........oh an easy way to fix algae........this fix is only very short term (thats going to be the other part of this experiment) this is not the way to fix algae, people that know me from posting here know that i could cure this algae, i do not recommend that you think that this is a long term solution to algae.........because it is not.

If you have algae and do not cure the underlying cause of that algae the algae will come back whether you use the Excel treatment or not, prevention is always better than cure particularily with algae.

I will do an update to the thread in a few days time.

 

[kenneth_kpe]

interesting... pardon my ignorace.. excel is a c02 additive right ? we dont have that product over here so im just curious

 

[George Farmer]

Great thread zig - very interesting and should prove helpful to other members.

Is the BBA is a consequence of your DIY CO2 mixtures i.e. fluctuating CO2 levels alone or do you think there are any other factors involved?

interesting... pardon my ignorace.. excel is a c02 additive right ? we dont have that product over here so im just curious

I believe it is a source of carbon in liquid form http/www.seachem.com/products/product_pa...urishExcel.html

 

[zig]

Is the BBA is a consequence of your DIY CO2 mixtures i.e. fluctuating CO2 levels alone or do you think there are any other factors involved?

Im pretty convinced that it is the DIY co2 mixtures flucuating, although i do try very hard to keep the co2 as stable as possible, i use 2 nutrafin units on the tank and swop out the mixtures every 7-10 days or so in rotation and one of the mixes is allways going full steam ahead when i swop out the other one, i allways change the mix at night time after lights out to let it build up some bubbling capacity for the next day.

The only thing i have changed recently was i switched trace mix and started using CSM+B thats all i have done, and this alone wouldnt cause bba to activate in the tank, so i really have to look at the co2, bba is caused by insufficient levels of co2 or flucuating levels of co2, so the diy mix is obviously not cutting it for my tank, i dont really know what else could trigger the outbreak, although any time i test for co2 the test results are allways good, but the mixes obviously flucuate at some point and this is probably the cause, maybe i was threading a thin line all along.

I think maybe you can get away with DIY co2 for so long but algae is always going to be just one knock from the door if you let your guard down, and this is probably what has happened here, you need control of the co2 thats the bottom line, and thats why you ideally need pressurised co2.

interesting... pardon my ignorace.. excel is a c02 additive right ? we dont have that product over here so im just curious

Kenneth the Excel would be ideal for your nano tank, its basically as gf has said a source of carbon in liquid form.

 

[jimbooo]

interesting, i've never suffered from BBA at all and i'm a bit slap dash with my nutrafin refills. i got back from holiday to a tank full of thick green algae (like staghorn but very dense and bright green - wall to wall) co2 was low as one nutrafin had almost run out and nitrate and phosphate were O. not that i'm complaining but why dont i get bba? id rather that than this damn stuff. my riccia in the 12G is totally ruined and heading for the bin! luckily the 40G wasn't as bad so will re plant from that.

 

[RYO]

mmmm thats a tad like the algae i get in my 60L at the moment +some snotty stringy brown algae(?) that clings to the riccia and java moss.
I change my co2 mix every 4 days (or so well i try) to try and keep it at a stable 30-35 ppm.
Might try some excel myself.

 

[zig]

Ok just another update on day 6, i didnt think i would be updating this thread so quickly.

Im starting to get some negative responses from some of my plants, when i say negative i mean some of my plants are beginning to disintigrate and die, i suppose from a plants point of view thats about as negative as it gets.

I have some Ergia densa in the tank which i took from another tank when i started to get the fuzz algae, it grows like a weed under 3 WPG, this plant is doing the worst, some parts of this plant have totally disintigrated and are dead, other parts like in the shot below are practically destroyed as well, although the one in the shot isnt quite dead yet its well on its way, i dont really like this plant normally but it has its benifits as a rapid grower, this plant was fine and healthy when i started the treatment last sunday, i had done my normal 50% water change and considered cutting it back as it was growing along the surface of the tank, but in the end i left it be.

The only other plant thats suffering in the tank is my Vallis, this plant never grew at all well in my tank for some reason, when i say it never grew well i mean it grew very slowly but was always healthy looking, i can see that what happened to the Ergia densa is also going to happen to the Vallis although at a slower rate, but i would imagine in another few days this plant would also be dead, so i will remove it from the tank and try and save it.

All other plants appear to be doing well im just fertiliseing as normal each day.

This is the shot of the Ergia densa you can see on the left hand side the clear glass like appeaance of the plant, although the stem is still intact and the tip of the plant is still green i would say within a day or so this plant would be dead, the other remaining stems are totally clear as if they have disintigrated over many weeks but its only been 6 days.

The other more destroyed stems are to awkard to get a decent shot of, the one above was overhanging the surface hence the angle of the shot.

 

[George Farmer]

Interesting. Do you think the overdosing of carbon is the cause?

I would guess that you Vallis never grew well due to your low water bi-carbonate content.

I'm fairly sure Egeria sp. prefers harder water too.

 

[zig]

Interesting. Do you think the overdosing of carbon is the cause?

I would guess that you Vallis never grew well due to your low water bi-carbonate content.

I'm fairly sure Egeria sp. prefers harder water too.

Definatly the cause, the plant was fine and healthy last sunday, i was considering giving it a trim as it was trailing and overhanging the surface of the water, in the end i left it alone.

I took the lid off the aquarium this morning to fish out the remains of the plant and the Excel seems to be having an effect on my Dwarf Riccia floating at the surface as well, some Riccia has been floating at the surface of the tank for months and i regularily have to chuck lots of it out because it blocks the light, the damage here isnt to bad at all i just removed the affected part and left the rest floating, i will keep an eye on it but i wouldnt worry that i may lose the plant entirely.

I would say at least half of the Ergeria is still in the tank its just turned to a mush and is difficult to remove entirely.

 

[griffgrogg]

Hi

I started the 'excel' regime 4 days ago and Ive had to remove some of my Ergeria yesterday for the same reason, Im keeping my eye on the remainder, the other plants are fine as are the fish......fingers crossed..

 

[houndour]

Interesting read Zig.

Do you think having 1 day of no CO2 can cause an algae outbreak? I had 1 day while I was getting my replacement bottle.

Just a note and I wouldn't recommend it, when I was dosing maracyn to kill the cyanobacteria it also killed all the black brush algae (it turned grey, then white and then disappeared). I'm getting a lot of brown algae on the glass now which I think is diatoms, I'm not sure. I'm thinking its down to the cycle I'm going through due to the maracyn killing off the bacteria.

 

[zig]

Hi

I started the 'excel' regime 4 days ago and Ive had to remove some of my Ergeria yesterday for the same reason, Im keeping my eye on the remainder, the other plants are fine as are the fish......fingers crossed..

Glad to hear that you can confirm my experiences with the Egeria i was beginning to doubt myself, my Vallis does not seem to have deteriorated any further so i will leave this in the tank until the treatment is finished and see what happens, all the other plants are doing fine.

Today was 50% water change day for me and i dosed 20ml Excel back into the tank and the water has again become quite hazy, id expect for this to clear as it did last week in a day or so.

I have been dosing 2x the normal recommended amount of the Excel, so each day other than water change day i have been dosing 8ml Excel after lights out, the normal recommended amount is 1ml per 10 US gallons of water or 4ml per day, on water change day you dose 5ml per 10 US gallons which in my case is 20ml.

I have definatly noticed the bba turning a shade of light grey in the last couple of days, this is a sign the bba is dying off and what you should expect from the treatment, some people experience the bba going a very intense red before it starts to go grey, the picture above is as red as it got for me, so far the 2x treatment seems to be working fine and going according to plan, but probably a bit to early yet to judge whether it will totally eradicate the bba or if 3x is indeed needed to finish it off, i will post a pic in the next day or so.

Edit: Sam i doubt having the co2 off for a day would matter but i dont know, i probably would have reduced the photo period that day or not turned the lights on at all until i got the co2 bottle refilled.

Interesting about the maracyn and the bba, i expect my grey bba to start turning whiteish but i think i will have to remove it, i dont think it will disappear by itself.

 

[griffgrogg]

zig,

how are the plants today ? some of my vallis has started disintegrating too, the egeria isnt looking too well. My crypts are all doing fine and look healthy....the green spot algae I had is gone and the brush algae is a light greyish colout...............Im getting a bit concerned about my harlequin rasboras. they dont seem to be feeding very much, the corys, sharks and sae's are fine..........Ive been on the excel overdosing for a week now, shall I stick it out or stop ?

Terri

 

[zig]

zig,

how are the plants today ? some of my vallis has started disintegrating too, the egeria isnt looking too well. My crypts are all doing fine and look healthy....the green spot algae I had is gone and the brush algae is a light greyish colout...............Im getting a bit concerned about my harlequin rasboras. they dont seem to be feeding very much, the corys, sharks and sae's are fine..........Ive been on the excel overdosing for a week now, shall I stick it out or stop ?

Terri

Up to you really you are the best judge

my plants and fish are doing fine today im going to do 2 weeks anyway, i want the greyish bba to turn more of a white colour and then i will know it is dead, its definatly dying now, but bba is very difficult stuff to get rid of so i want to be absolutley sure it is dead.

if you think you are seeing signs of stress then you should stop, i cant really advise other than that, its an experiment for me also but my fish are feeding normally.

If you do stop just remove any parts of plants that are affected and just hope that the bba wont return any time soon.

 

[zig]

The 14 days of overdosing the Excel at 2x were up last saturday so i just thought id do an update.

So far i would say the experiment has been a relative success, the affected area of the hairgrass looks a lot better, i mean a lot better a major improvement, but im not totally convinced that the bba is dead as i can still see some areas on the hairgrass that have definatly been affected by the treatment but the bba still seems to be hanging in there, so i have decided to continue treatment for another 7 days this time dosing at 3x to try and deliver the final blow to the algae.

I have been treating the affected areas directly with a plastic syringe, i basically load up the syringe with the correct dose and then spray the Excel directly at the worst affected areas of the bba (hand underwater in the tank obviously very close to the area i want to treat) and this seems to be having the desired effect as i can now just rub my fingers on some areas of the bba and it breaks up and more or less dissolves, so i may continue to do this on the most obvious areas and the other areas will just be treated through the water column.

So i have come to the conclusion that overdosing 3x was probably the way to go from the start, i could probably continue to dose at 2x and the algae may die off eventually, but i dont know how long that would take it could take several more weeks i dont know.

Once the treatment is over i may continue to dose the Excel (because i have loads left) at a low level to supplement my DIY CO2 until i can sort out pressurised CO2 (which im working on)

After i had the problems with the Egeria i did a bit more research and it turns out this is very common its almost to be expected when you overdose Excel, it will effect your plants, each tank seems to be different but the most commonly effected plants seem to be Vallisneria and Egeria, but it will effect others also.