Any Star Gazers...?

[dgwebster]

Been quiet from the forums for some time, busy with my other hobbies - including astronomy.
 
Proud owner of a skywatcher 150P on an eq3-2 mount here
 
Would really love to get a solar scope though.

 

[HarpyFishLover]

I do believe that the stars are the most beautiful yet puzzling creations out there. May I interject, that although 13-billion-year-old stars and such have been found, I do believe that there is a God who created all things. This comment may start arguments, but I do not intend it to be so... but here it is. I believe God can do all things, and with that belief comes the explanation, why couldn't He have brought the light from those billions of stars far, far away to us when He created the world?

I do believe there is life outside of the earth, somewhere in this vast universe. The chances are so incredibly good for it.

In my opinion, I believe that the stars are yet another good example of a supreme God, who created everything to be good in His sight. Before the usual questions come, yes, the world is a place full of death, deceit, sin, and everything bad. But God did not create it this way. It came when Adam and Eve ate the apple.

Is there anyone else here who believes this?

Also, if anybody wishes to argue, please be nice

 

[dgwebster]

I want to say for anyone wanting to respond regarding religion, please respect everyones right to choose their religion freely. constructively comment on your own opinion without denegrating HarpyFishLover's opinion.

 

[ShinySideUp]

I do believe that the stars are the most beautiful yet puzzling creations out there. May I interject, that although 13-billion-year-old stars and such have been found, I do believe that there is a God who created all things. This comment may start arguments, but I do not intend it to be so... but here it is. I believe God can do all things, and with that belief comes the explanation, why couldn't He have brought the light from those billions of stars far, far away to us when He created the world?

I do believe there is life outside of the earth, somewhere in this vast universe. The chances are so incredibly good for it.

In my opinion, I believe that the stars are yet another good example of a supreme God, who created everything to be good in His sight. Before the usual questions come, yes, the world is a place full of death, deceit, sin, and everything bad. But God did not create it this way. It came when Adam and Eve ate the apple.

Is there anyone else here who believes this?

Also, if anybody wishes to argue, please be nice

 
So you are not a creationist then?

 

[HarpyFishLover]

...if I didn't make it clear in my comment, I'm sorry. I am a creationist, and I believe that God created everything in this universe.

I was thinking about this conversation last night. I have to wonder if God maybe just made THIS SOLAR SYSTEM in the seven days in the Bible. Maybe He made the other stuff before or after that?

The truth is, nobody really knows much about the universe. We have just begun to "scratch the surface" in our knowledge of the marvels of the universe. Most of what anybody says is pure speculation!

My only issue with evolutionists is that they present evolution as if they know it is true. It is pure speculation.

 

[PepperjacksMama]

I tend to disagree about evolution. It does happen. Wether through habitat change or forced selective breeding i.e. dogs for example.
However as a faith based person I know that I know next to nothing about how the universe was created and how it works.
I do know it is wounderous and beautiful though.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Well, knowing more about the Universe may well change your perception of a deity that managed to create everything in six days and then had to do most of it again when Noah was around because he messed it up the first time.
 
I am a scientist and an out-and-out atheist. To me there is no god; Jesus/Mohammed/Moses are just characters from history whose longetivity throughout modern times I put down to word of mouth and the changing effect of Chinese whispers.
 
I try to ensure I know something about everything and that includes religion, all religions. Not in depth but enough to be able to hold my own in a debate. My problem is that when I try to have a debate with 'the faithful' I am considered wrong or at least badly mistaken because while I have tried to understand their point of view they generally choose to ignore everything that might shake their faith. I point to dinosaur fossils, the reason the Sun shines and why there are heavy metals on the Earth. There are thousands, nay millions of pieces of evidence that the Earth was not created in six days, six years or six thousand years, but in 4,500 million years and our Earth is made up of stuff that came from other suns after the Universe's origin 13 billion years ago. There is evidence for this, scientific evidence, and at no time, ever, has anyone managed to produce a single piece of indisputable evidence that there was ever an all-creating god, none.
 
All the above is my scientifically-backed opinion.
 
I don't begrudge creationists believing what they do but to say they know nothing about the Universe apart from 'it's a bit pretty' and then proceed to dismiss all of science out of hand is somewhat disingenuous unless the plan is to ignore everything that contradicts ones beliefs.
 
I only wish that devoutly religious people would suspend their beliefs for a while and actually look at science, in detail, they may be pleasantly surprised.
 
I suspect I am about to get flamed and pilloried for the above and in the middle ages would probably have been 'shown the instruments of torture' until I 'believed' -- well I don't. When I'm dead I'm dead and my component parts will eventually return to the stars when our Sun becomes a red giant whereupon they will become something else in another star perhaps, until in many trillions of years, the Universe goes cold and dead and all things will have come to an end. If the heaven bit is to believed, you will go on and on until Heaven becomes so smotheringly boring that anyone there will be praying for an extinction that by all accounts, will never come -- sounds like Hell to me.
 
There, that's a bit of fun. Touch-paper lit, he stands back and awaits the fireworks.

 

[HarpyFishLover]

First- you got the story of Noah just a bit off. God did not make a mistake- Adam made the mistake by eating off of the tree that God specifically told him not to.

Second- I do try to listen to all theories carefully, to increase my knowledge about how the universe works. This does not mean I will necessarily believe them, it just means I will listen to them.

Third- about fossils. Let me point you to the fact that fossils of different "eras" have been found in the same place, on the same level.

Fourth- about the sun. The sun has a certain rate of decay that leads to the conclusion that it is only thousands of years old, not millions. This is not a good basis for disproving evolution, though.

Fifth- Endlessly worshipping my all-knowing, all-loving God will never get boring, even if that IS all we do in Heaven.

 

[dgwebster]

I make these comments regardless of religous choice.

Third- about fossils. Let me point you to the fact that fossils of different "eras" have been found in the same place, on the same level.

The crust is not a solid, non moving mass and objects can and do move around inside it at different rates. Thing of putting squash into water, you can see the squash sink down into the glass before it mixes because of its inertia or some other agitagion. Solids behave the same way, some to a greater and some to a lesser degree. Just it takes millions of years to do so and some objects may find levels they cant penetrate (i.e. the glass bottom)

Fourth- about the sun. The sun has a certain rate of decay that leads to the conclusion that it is only thousands of years old, not millions. This is not a good basis for disproving evolution, though.

I have a degree in physics. When you have a degree in physics, please explain how this is true. Until you do, please please accept it is not true. I am asking you to have faith in me that I am telling you the truth that this is false. I wont provide any evidence but will simply ask you to do so on faith and trust that I have zero reason to lie to you.

 

[Lateral Line]

There is little point trying to debate or argue even with religious types. It is not really their fault, they had religion thrust onto them long and hard from a very early age. It sinks in deep. That is why religious teachers like to "get them early", whilst science educators have to wait until their charges are in their teens. As an atheist, it is a lesson I have come to understand.

 

[PepperjacksMama]

There is little point trying to debate or argue even with religious types. It is not really their fault, they had religion thrust onto them long and hard from a very early age. It sinks in deep. That is why religious teachers like to "get them early", whilst science educators have to wait until their charges are in their teens. As an atheist, it is a lesson I have come to understand.

Thank you for making a valid point.
There is little point in trying to argue or debate.
As for the even religious types comment, does that nullify the inference that their is little point in debating or arguing with atheists?
As for religion being thrust on persons from an early age. How does that apply to persons such as myself that had a conversion later in life? Free will, wow what a concept!
And for knowing next to nothing. Try humility, perhaps it is not a colot that looks good on you, but no matter how much I know about any one thing I am knowledgeable enough to know my knowledge barely scratches the surface.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Unfortunately there is good reason why atheists and religionists (?) waste their time arguing the point as they come at the subject from two different directions that can never meet:
 
Science -- and physics and maths in particular -- relies on people coming up with hypotheses to explain a physical, or theoretical, manifestation of an event or process. The rest of the physical/mathematical world then tries to disprove the hypothesis. If this fails, the hypothesis becomes a theory and sits there until future work disproves the theory -- it is never, ever, portrayed as a FACT.
 
Religion relies on the apparent teachings of long-dead authors which people either believe or they don't. If they believe, then the teachings are fact. One cannot argue with someone who truly believes because unlike a theory, believers already know that their particular belief IS a fact and anyone not agreeing is not merely putting an alternative view, they are just WRONG.
 
I would love to be able to attempt to persuade a creationist that they are not correct in their beliefs but if someone is adamant that all creatures on Earth lived within walking distance of Noah's ark I have no doubt I cannot ever change their minds.
 
As a scientist, I am open to the possibility that I am wrong if given enough credible evidence, but all the evidence in the world will not shake the beliefs of religionists if they believe it is all misinformation at best or a downright lie at worst.
 
Creationists, Catholics, Muslims or David Icke supporters can believe what they want, I couldn't give a monkey's toss, but once they start telling me i must believe this or that or come knocking on my door asking me if I have 'heard the good news' then i start to get irritated.I don't want to imagine what it must be like to live in ISIS-controlled territory or 16th century England and be told what to believe or die as a kafir/heretic if I objected. Unfortunately, I think that eventually this time will come again until the pendulum swings the other way and science can start again.
 
Remember that before Islam became twisted by religious leaders, Arabs were world leaders in science.

 

[Lateral Line]

There is little point arguing or debating when both parties KNOW they are right but that their knowledge frameworks are mutually exclusive. Vis your points above, point 3 interests me slightly. As a trained geologist, Kingston Polytechnic, (now called Kingston University), 1978, I'd be interested to read the piece to which you refer. There are many ways things like that can happen of course, a quality example is always useful to have to hand. In your point 4, you are correct in saying the sun, and solar system generally, are not millions of years old, they are billions of years old.

 

[RainboWBacoN420]

If we are going to discuss religion, and I think it fits perfectly with this discussion, let's please keep it appropriate and respectful, no matter what anyone says, PLEASE don't be offended and make an argument. I would be really displeased if this discussion was taken down because people can't keep their cool.
 
I do not believe in God or luck for that matter. Unless God is some scientist in his own universe that created a micro-verse, which is us, then that could explain where "God" came from? (this is a reference to the idea of what God is from the animated show Rick and Morty, so I wouldn't ponder this, lol). But of all seriousness, I can't make sense of religion, there's no proof of a God and if you ask "then how did the universe come to be?" no one can possibly answer that question. I really don't believe a super space spirit created everything and if God did create the universe, where was God before the universe? 
 
I think religion was created for the purpose of giving people a sense of "closure", to stop us from questioning our existence and getting frustrated from thinking about it, that or religion was created to control a population, y'know... like a cult. Which I think all religions can be considered as a cult that evolved into a "super power" where it gained mass popularity and became very involved in people's life to the point where people will kill each other for not agreeing with their religion. And I believe this has happened with EVERY religion out there, now I'm not saying that's what every religion abides by. 
 
Have you guys every seen the movie "The Mist"? Remember how that one religion-crazed woman plants fear and guilt into everyone trapped in the store and eventually gains control because everyone needed a sense of belonging and safety, and believed that the woman was God's vessel? I think that's a good sum up of how religion came to be. Fear, guilt, questioning of existence and closure seem to be the primary ingredients for religion. In fact, I think if anything, religion has caused more harm on this planet than anything else, now I'm not saying all religions have caused harm and I don't hate  everyone that's apart of it, but almost every war that was fought before the 1600's was mostly likely over religious differences... or colonization... under the influence of religion. 
 
Now, I can't stress this enough, I really hope no one gets offended by what I had said. And I'm not trying to convert people from their religions or tell them that everything they know is a lie. These are all just different perspectives of philosophy. We all have to wonder why we're here and what our purpose is on Earth. Religion is a hotly debated topic, and usually spirals out of control, so I would appreciate if we could just discuss it properly like properly civilized adults, here. As a guy who grew up in a Christian family, I know how it is to be told your religion is entirely wrong and begin to panic and question yourself. So for those who are atheist here and want to oppose religion, please be mindful. For those who are religious, please be mindful of other peoples views, they're simply different perspectives, if you get offended for whatever reason, have some time to think and cool down, then give your input. I wasn't expecting religion to pop up here, but it does fit with the curiosity and wonders of the universe. But as I mentioned in the beginning of this comment, I'm worried this will go out of control and get taken down, that's what typically happens when people debate religion...

 

[ShinySideUp]

I don't think anyone is getting offensive or aereated over the subject matter, I think all the comments so far have been reasoned and eloquently put. So to continue...
 
I propose to the members here that religion has been invented because people are sentient and therefore aware of their own inevitable demise; I also think religion is encouraged to give power to those in charge of that religion, but that's material for another post.
 
Is it not a truism that people turn to religion when they fear death and are trying to convince themselves, without any evidence, that there is some sort of afterlife, that this is not all there is? I put it to those people that they might consider living their lives now rather than perhaps waste what time they have in the hope that there is something better on 'the other side', because if there isn't you've kinda used up your one life in a futile cause when if there is indeed an afterlife, you will probably get it anyway if your god is so forgiving.