Another Lr Question

[Donya]

How can you tell when a piece of LR is as colonized with bacteria and other organisms as it can be? The reason I ask is that the LR in my 5 gallon was pretty bland looking until I increased my bioload significantly (although still invert only) and now the color is really starting to take off. I had algae growing in a few spots prior, but now it's really starting to look brighter from forams and other encrusting algaes, and the porous areas have darkened signifigantly. But, I still have one relatively "dead rock" that's doing hardly anything. I had a small nitrate blip at the time I raised the bioload, but it is now down to 0 again. Does my LR still have more filtration potential in it? How do I know when it's "maxed out" without causing a major tank accident?

I'm not thinking of dumping a ton of animals in the tank to try to fill it up. I would just like to know if there is an indicator for full colonization of bacteria + other stuff, so that I can keep tabs on its developement as the ecosystem developes and I change foods around (trying to find the prefered foods of a couple snail species right now...lots of food is getting wasted in the process).

 

[RoyalGrammaPrincessHannah]

I don't think there isn't a visble sign of when it is "maxed out", but for the first few months you will be noticing changes in the color of the LR weekly. This is mostly because of the coralline algae though, which isn't a sign of the bacteria, but more of a sign of healthy LR and good calcium levels. Corals feed off of fish waste, so the organisms colonizing LR probably do too, and since there is more life in the tank and more things going on, maybe that's why you saw an increase of life on the rock. I'd say that when LR has been in an established tank for 6 months, it probably isn't going to be harvesting any "new" bacteria. Hard question for a real answer.

 

[bunjiweb]

A good sign that your LR is well colonised is when you get lots of copeopods and other micro-organisms living on your tank glass. This is always a good sign that there is lots of life in your tank, but its almost impossible to tell when a piece of LR is "saturated" so to speak. This is primarily because alot of the small organisms living within it only have a life cycle that lasts a few days or weeks, and generally they will get eaten so numbers will be controlled.

Good question, but a tough one to answer!

Ben

 

[Navarre]

As you seem to be keeping an invert only tank with little to no fish then your liverock will never be stretched to the point of worrying if the bacteria can handle the bioload. Inverts use so little of the bioload its hardly even readable. This is why its possible to chuck an entire cleaning crew in a tank the moment its cycled with no bio spike. the same applies to packing corals in the tank.. practically as many that will get long together... add a few fish and the bioload increases dramatically.

Fish only systems... relatively easy to keep
Invert only... Relatively easy...

Reef setup.. now thats the tricky part

 

[RoyalGrammaPrincessHannah]

As you seem to be keeping an invert only tank with little to no fish then your liverock will never be stretched to the point of worrying if the bacteria can handle the bioload. Inverts use so little of the bioload its hardly even readable. This is why its possible to chuck an entire cleaning crew in a tank the moment its cycled with no bio spike. the same applies to packing corals in the tank.. practically as many that will get long together... add a few fish and the bioload increases dramatically.

Fish only systems... relatively easy to keep
Invert only... Relatively easy...

Reef setup.. now thats the tricky part

Well, except for that slime [for lack of a better term] corals excrete, adding a ton at once isn't necessarily a good thing...

 

[Donya]

Arg. So here I was worrying about getting nitrate production for my macro and my LR is probably only partway to "full" lol. It will be interesting to see what it does from here out...I'm wondering now if I made a mistake in worrying over nitrates for the macros more than getting the LR colonized.

Got a new question now so just to have a basis, the current stuff is...
- Macro: 3 Caulerpa species
- about 4lbs LR and a bunch of 1-2" aragonite substrate
- 1 Strombus luhuanus (found a parasite-free one...got lucky)
- 1 Margarites
- bunch of Neritina (pratcially live off air so they don't really count)
- 1 hermit
- Filter guys: forams (new appearance), vermetid snails, various small sponges

The current Strombus snails, both my current one and the one that succumbed to parasites, are what drove the initial kick over in LR changes. The Strombus eats a huge amount for a snail, and I have to feed it twice a day to keep up with it. But, it's vegetable matter, and it is only "a lot for a snail", so I suppose it's fairly beneign waste compared to if I had a carnivore/omnivore in there.

If I was to add a fish the bioload would go up but a certain amount, because of the waste output from the fish. Am I right in thinking it would do this because of the nature of what it eats is different, given that it is a non-herbivore? If that is the case, in theory it would be diet of the inhabitants and amount of that type of food consumed that is a bigger driver than fish vs. invert. Or is there something else going on, like fish processing the food differently?

Copepod populations are also a goal of mine, but it sounds like I won't get there at the rate I'm going (bummer). I now gather that a few snails, although they make my macro grow, won't make pods populate enough to make themselves visible...if I even have any to start with. What would be the best next step to take towards increasing the biodiversity in there and getting something like copepods going?

Sorry for so many obscure questions and asking a lot of similar questions; just trying to get a handle on the details. This forum has been a great resource for me and I really appreciate all the help and information I've received!

 

[RoyalGrammaPrincessHannah]

Im not sure, but I think fish just put out a lot more waste than inverts. Thats why you need to limit the number of fish put in at once, so the bacteria can have time to multiply to sufficiently keep the ammonia in check.

For biodiversity, go for a nice porous holey piece of LR. If you can't see everything going on inside the rock, you can bet theres prolly some cool stuff in there. Thats also a good way to bring in the pods. If you do add a fish in the future, don't get a goby if the pods are important to you. It's one of their favorite foods.
In my opinion though, a goby of some sort is much cooler than amphipods and copepods. Plus, they can live in a small aquarium easily.

I totally know what you mean about those intricate, detailed little questions. They are an important part of having the best understanding of this complex ecosystem we are all creating.

 

[Navarre]

Whether a fish eats veggy or meat isnt really an issue on waste products. A tang for example is a primary algae eater yet it gives out large waste quantities. The problem with fish is that they constantly breath out copious ammounts of concentrated ammonia which compared to freshwater fish is negligable.
SNails and inverts etc dont breath in the same manner and their digestive system handles things differently.

 

[Donya]

The problem with fish is that they constantly breath out copious ammounts of concentrated ammonia which compared to freshwater fish is negligable.
SNails and inverts etc dont breath in the same manner and their digestive system handles things differently.

Thanks! That completely resolves my confusion there. I've got a pretty good handle on the world of gastropods, but not really fish as a whole. I knew there were some physiological differences in fw vs. sw fish regarding respiration and ion transfer, but I didn't know that until recently and am still reading.

 

[Donya]

Well I did it...I goby-ified. LFS had some 1/2" clown gobies today and I never get there when they have any that arn't already sold. I also got a portion of brine shrimp as "snack food"...and now I probably have more biomass in brineshrimp than in fish Anyway, it will be interesting to see some response from the LR with the addition of a non-invert. Hopefully it will encourange some of the strange algaes and filter-feeders that have been showing up but not propagating very well (lack of food I guess).

I have never seen pods in the LFS on the cured LR they have, but I realized today that they keep gobies and other fish in with their LR to keep it going and keep it clean, so odds of me getting pods are really low from new LR. Rats I'll have to leave that as a problem to solve as I figure out the next tank.