Angelfish issue in my Community Tank

[Kou3]

Hello

Well, my angelfish, i have 7 of them in my tank, medium age to adults, i have done a 50% water change lately, temp's didn't drop by more than 0.5-1 celesius and then my angels started to act weird, something like a white fungus/slime appeared on 3 of them, and others are just hiding in the tank or resting on the substrate and sometimes goes to the surface, and also some of them try to scratch their bodies on plants, there apetite isn't the best, they usually run to the surface when they me see enter the room, they eat but not that much, i have read online and they say this is Ich or White spot disease, so i have set my tank temp at 28c to 30c and added rock salt to the whole community tank afer a 20% water change and also added Seachem Stability and Prime, there behavior did change a bit after one day, my question here is how shall i handle this case? Do i need a huge water change? media change? use a certain medication? i read about the Aquadene 4 for Ich problems, but using it will kill all the plants, and my quarantine tank won't take all of my angels.

Tank is 300+ litres, parameters are good i have tested them, temp is good, other fish in the tank like Cory's and Tetra's, Gouramis', Ram's, a Juvenille discuss, are fully ok and they eat normally, i use Sability on each water change, and Prime every 48 hours for them, my Eheim canister is clean it is at 5% dirty. Tank started since a month and a half, and the issue happened since like 3-4 days after the water change.

I use Hikari food, and sometimes blood worms.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Don't add any more salt or meds until we figure out what's wrong. This doesn't sound like ich. Ich looks like grains of salt on the fish's body, fins, and gills. It sounds to me like possibly some sort of toxin was introduced after your last water change. Could you post some pictures of your angels?

 

[Byron]

Agree with above suggestion/advice. But, there are some questions.

Why are you dumping in Prime every 48 hours? There are chemicals in Prime that do harm fish over time, and it is not intended to be used except with fresh water being added at a water change. Also, Stability is only more chemicals for no purpose. I am not suggesting these issues are the direct cause, but I can assure you they are not making life easy for the fish, and that means stress which allows disease to take hold.

The photos may help us. Also, what is the normal water change routine, and are any other additives going in the tank water?

Another thing to check into, have the parameters in the source water changed? Parameters refeers to GH, KH (Alkalinity), pH and temperature. Temp is given (and a change of 1 or 2 degrees is not an issue) but not the others.

And, welcome to TFF.

 

[Kou3]

@WhistlingBadger @Byron
Thank you for the feedback.

I will attach some pictures from my tank, 3 fish are now in the quarantine tank at 30c with salt and Aquadene 4 which a medication for gil, fungus and parasite, recommended by my local pet store, they've been there for 2 days now. I moved them because they were the most effected.

Other pics are from the community tank for the angels and other healthy fish, angels are on the ground most of the time or hiding. no discoloration so far.

@Byron I use Prime every 48 hours as sometimes i add up water for the tank because of evaporation and i asked Seachem and they said it is ok to dose every 48 hours, and they also said to put Stability on every water change, 40ml for my tank, and that i can't overdose benefecial bacteria. and i don't add additives to the tank, i once added Seachem Flourish as i have some anubias in the tank. I have used the same water source for the latest change and tested the water after that and all was good. My change routine is 7-10 days 20%-30% change and after 3 changes i did a big change for around 50% then the issue happened.

Filteration is running on Seachem Matrix, Seachem Purigen, Eheim Substrate, and Fluval rings as a pre-filter.

Nothing changed in the tank since the beggining, just removed the Eheim pre-filter as it did miss with the water constant flow.

 

[Byron]

I use Prime every 48 hours as sometimes i add up water for the tank because of evaporation and i asked Seachem and they said it is ok to dose every 48 hours, and they also said to put Stability on every water change, 40ml for my tank, and that i can't overdose benefecial bacteria.

This is bad advice. While Seachem do produce some very good and beneficial products, they are in the end there to make a profit, which means having to sell their products as much as they can.

On the Stability, this is not going to do anything beneficial. It does not contain the correct species of nitrifying bacteria in the first place. And in the second, there is no need for any bacterial supplements if the tank is cycled, and it obviously is after the time given and with these fish looking(except for the angelfish) fine.

As for Prime, it should only be added for the amount of fresh tap water going in. Here again Seachem will say differently...I don't care, it is not fact and there is no point adding excess chemicals to cause trouble for the fish, and they do when overdosed. I won't even use Prime because of what is in it. API Tap Water Conditioner is a significantly safer and better conditioner.

There is an issue with the different species. Angelfish and discus and gourami should never be in the same tank. I'm not going to get into this now, there are more urgent issues, but this is most likely part of the problem. Temperature is another compatibility issue...discus and rams must have warmth, 82-84F / 28-29C is needed. Angelfish do not need this, but it is not as much of a problem as it would be for many other fish. I mention this because you have not indicated the temp.

There may well be some aggression here. This is not always easy to spot, because your presence signals "food" to the fish. If you sit without moving for 30+ minutes, you can sometimes see a lot you would not otherwise notice.

I am not good on disease, and will not guess. @Colin_T and @GaryE may have more direct advice on the angelfish.

 

[Kou3]

This is bad advice. While Seachem do produce some very good and beneficial products, they are in the end there to make a profit, which means having to sell their products as much as they can.

On the Stability, this is not going to do anything beneficial. It does not contain the correct species of nitrifying bacteria in the first place. And in the second, there is no need for any bacterial supplements if the tank is cycled, and it obviously is after the time given and with these fish looking(except for the angelfish) fine.

As for Prime, it should only be added for the amount of fresh tap water going in. Here again Seachem will say differently...I don't care, it is not fact and there is no point adding excess chemicals to cause trouble for the fish, and they do when overdosed. I won't even use Prime because of what is in it. API Tap Water Conditioner is a significantly safer and better conditioner.

There is an issue with the different species. Angelfish and discus and gourami should never be in the same tank. I'm not going to get into this now, there are more urgent issues, but this is most likely part of the problem. Temperature is another compatibility issue...discus and rams must have warmth, 82-84F / 28-29C is needed. Angelfish do not need this, but it is not as much of a problem as it would be for many other fish. I mention this because you have not indicated the temp.

There may well be some aggression here. This is not always easy to spot, because your presence signals "food" to the fish. If you sit without moving for 30+ minutes, you can sometimes see a lot you would not otherwise notice.

I am not good on disease, and will not guess. @Colin_T and @GaryE may have more direct advice on the angelfish.

Well.. the gourami's will be moved soon as the red flame sometimes attack the discus and blue rams, the pearl is a bit calmer, but i will take them out this week for a friend. The temp is at 26c-27c most of the time and never dropped lower than 24 but i raised it more after the issue. It's yes not easy to spot, issue is happening mainly with my angels, and one of the discus.

But i will follow your advice regarding the chemicals, and will try to get the API as it doesn't have a dealer here in the country, i might get it from Amazon.

Thank you Byron.

 

[Byron]

Well.. the gourami's will be moved soon as the red flame sometimes attack the discus and blue rams, the pearl is a bit calmer, but i will take them out this week for a friend. The temp is at 26c-27c most of the time and never dropped lower than 24 but i raised it more after the issue. It's yes not easy to spot, issue is happening mainly with my angels, and one of the discus.

But i will follow your advice regarding the chemicals, and will try to get the API as it doesn't have a dealer here in the country, i might get it from Amazon.

Thank you Byron.

Use the Prime until its gone, but go easy...never more than the amount required for the volume of fresh water. The API is far superior if you can get it. BTW, I forgot earlier to mention water changes...many of us will suggest that at the first sign of trouble, do a major water change. Provided the parameters, being GH, pH and temperature, are basically the same, you can never change too much water and it will never cause trouble, quite the opposite.

Now I'm fairly sure that there is an aggression issue, from what you've said. Physical attacks are obvious if they occur, but fish also communicate via chemicals that we cannot see. Pheromones among the fish in a species, and allomones among fish in different species. I have known fish to be so stressed by aggressive signals without any physical interaction that they weakened to the point of death.

 

[GaryE]

I think you have a parasitic outbreak. The angels look that way, although I am guessing. Look up velvet disease and see if it corresponds.

You say you did a 50% water change lately. When did you do one before that? What is your routine? Velvet thrives in softwater tanks where the fish are stressed and the water isn't optimal. You have some delicate species in there - fancy angels, fancy discus and a deformed ram. The tank is very heavily stocked if you look at longterm and there are temperature needs issues.
But velvet is a nasty one, and it may have gotten loose. Start with online photo comparison. Look for a whitish slime behind the head and along the spine,

I wouldn't give the rams to a friend, as you would be giving more than fish there. A couple of weeks after all's good - okay.

I tried to see the ingredients on that product you used. All I could find is that it's new and from Germany. Is there an active ingredient tag on the bottle?

 

[Kou3]

I think you have a parasitic outbreak. The angels look that way, although I am guessing. Look up velvet disease and see if it corresponds.

You say you did a 50% water change lately. When did you do one before that? What is your routine? Velvet thrives in softwater tanks where the fish are stressed and the water isn't optimal. You have some delicate species in there - fancy angels, fancy discus and a deformed ram. The tank is very heavily stocked if you look at longterm and there are temperature needs issues.
But velvet is a nasty one, and it may have gotten loose. Start with online photo comparison. Look for a whitish slime behind the head and along the spine,

I wouldn't give the rams to a friend, as you would be giving more than fish there. A couple of weeks after all's good - okay.

I tried to see the ingredients on that product you used. All I could find is that it's new and from Germany. Is there an active ingredient tag on the bottle?

Hi Gary

Hmmm.. i do 7-10 days 20%-30% water changes, and after that i did a 50% change, you say it is a parasitic outbreak, could that be from the ram’s and tetras?! I brought a week ago, but you see they are fine and swimming, eating normally.

And unfortunately no active ingredient on the bottle but i will send you a picture of what is written on the back.

What is happening could be Velvet, and it can be treated with salt and temp, just one question here, when shall i re-dose the salt and do the water changes to cure the fish?! And what is the perfect dose of rock salt to use in my tank, it is around 320 litres, likes many theories about the dosage online.

I also read online that Cooper can fix the issue.. what do you think of this product, shall i use it?!

https://reefamorous.com/en/catalogu...site-fish-treatment-120ml-fritz-aquatics_871/

 

[Colin_T]

Stop adding things to the water until we know what is going on.

How long has the tank been set up for?

Was the tank cycled before you added fish?
If yes, how did you cycle it?

How long have you had the fish for?
Were all the fish added at the same time?
How long did you have the small angelfish for before they acted unusual?

Do you use tap water from a water company or well water from underground?

What is the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & pH (in numbers) of the aquarium water and your water supply?

What is the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness) of your water supply?
This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website (Water Analysis Report) or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

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What do you feed the fish, including the discus?
Discus need lots of plant matter in their diet otherwise they develop intestinal problems. They can also have small crustaceans and insect larvae (brineshrimp, daphnia, mosquito larvae, etc). Most of the other fishes you have eat a lot of insect and meat based foods (standard fish foods).

You need to put something on the bottom of the discus tank so the fish feels more comfortable. A thin layer of sand will work. You just need to cover the glass so the fish can't see its reflection. Make sure there is a picture or something on the back of the tank to help the fish feel more secure too. A couple of plants (plastic or real) would help it feel more comfortable.

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If you are using chlorinated tap water for the aquarium, you should fill a bucket with tap water, add enough dechlorinator to neutralise the chlorine/ chloramine in that bucket of water, aerate the bucket of water and dechlorinator for 5-30 minutes, and then add the water to the aquarium.

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BASIC FIRST AID FOR FISH
Test the water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week or until the problem is identified. The water changes and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens so any medication (if needed) will work more effectively on the fish.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

 

[Kou3]

@Byron @Colin_T @GaryE

Well after trying Aquadene 4 which didn't work, i have lost so far 4 angels and 1 Juvenille discus, Gourami's, Tetras, Cory's are still fine as usual.

I will attach how the fish looked after its death, is that Velvet or Ich? that white slime is still there and some of the fishs fins are damaged and some of them is like clingy and clamped.

I am now using Protect X from Discus X in the main tank after searching for a Copper medication for them but i wasn't lucky.

 

[Colin_T]

excess mucous caused by something in the water irritating the fish.