Angelfish advice- bad tankmates

[PygmyPepperJulli]

Hi all,

I didn't put this in tropical emergencies because it probably isn't an issue in the next day, but it certainly might be later down the track.

For my 55gal tank (currently containing 20 neon tetra and some corydoras) someone just bought me 3 pearl gouramis and a juvenile angelfish. While I certainly appreciate the thought and know that they were listening to me when I said I loved these fish, and was actually planning to put some pearls in my tank, there is an issue.

The angelfish.

I have been told many times that an angelfish is both incompatible with neon tetra (future snacks) and gourami (aggression issues). I am also not sure if it ok to keep a lone angelfish by itself.

Is there any way I can make this work? I would like to, as I do love the fish, but if not (I suspect not), what to do with it? Cannot move to another tank (the only other tank is a currently empty 10gal) and I don't believe I can get a refund at the store. I've also heard re-homing unnecessarily stresses the fish, but considering the circumstances that seems like my only option.

I've read many articles online about whether they can live together, and the answer seems to be yes, if...
1. The neons are large and established and you add a baby angelfish
2. There are many hiding places
3. You have one angelfish (a girl is best) and it's not paired
4. They are not fin nippers
5. The gourami is non-aggressive and preferably in a small group
6. It is a rather large tank.
7. The angelfish grows up with smaller fish from a young age to learn they aren't food.

Number 1, 4, 5, and 6 I believe I have covered. I'm planting soon (all the shops are out of stock for plants I can use, but I can stuff lots of java fern in from my 10gal and floaters from the pond in the meantime) which will cover 2. I have no idea of the angelfish gender or it's temperament.

Sorry for the long post, but I need some advice.

TIA,
PPJ

EDIT- The pearls are also missing a large chunk from their tails, however the person that bought them said the shop assistant said they were brand-new stock and came like that from the producer. With time and clean water I'm pretty sure they'll heal, however I'll add this as I know aggressive fish usual target the weaker ones. The angel looks pretty stressed itself.

 

[PygmyPepperJulli]

And just a curiosity question, I was wondering what it would look like when it grows up. I'm assuming the species is P. Scalare. It's currently looking a bit like this (some random pic off the internet):

But when it gets older will it look like this

or this?

Cause IMO if I can end up keeping it the second one (no offense to the other one) looks way, way cooler.

 

[Ichthys]

The third fish is an adult and the other two are juveniles. You won’t know exactly what yours will look like until it grows up.
Good maintenance, appropriate water parameters, lack of stress, good quality foods, and of course genetics, will all play a part.

 

[Magnum Man]

I think Angels are bred & cross bred so often, you won't know exactly what an adult will look like unless you know the genetics

 

[Ichthys]

Some of the older domestic strains, including silvers, are hybrids between P. scalare and P. leopoldi, from a long time ago when leopoldi were thought to be scalare and not recognised as a different species.

 

[Uberhoust]

I have raised a number of angels, I haven't seen where their markings change much as they grow from juveniles. They can change a bit but not much. The biggest thing I find hard to predict is how large they get. My last set of fry generated some quite large angels but also some that are quite small.

I tried to keep pearl's with angels a few years ago, in the end I had to separate them. Both are nice fish but it seemed to me that the Pearls did better (better meaning less conflict) in the community tank than the angels did.

In regards to the Angels snacking on the neons that is questionable. If you added the neons in a tank of adult angels I would expect the neons would be a snack for the angel but if the angel grows up with them maybe not. I have a 75 gallon with 11 angels I raised with one ember tetra. I expect to find him missing at some time but so far they have left him alone. I would not expect this behavior but it has been this way for over a year.

 

[GaryE]

They used to sell neons that were sud-adult - really tiny. They were also dirt cheap, so very popular. Yes, if you put them with an adult angel, they got devoured. I have never lost any adult tetra to any angel, and I have kept full sized wild scalare.

I find male pearl gouramis nasty beasts to each other. Horrible to watch. But again, with angels, I never saw a lot of interaction either way.

The question for me with angels is not pattern (I would only keep wild type), but fin length. There are a lot of stumpy angels with lots of body and not a lot of fin in the hobby. They come in wild like that, but in much lower percentages than I see in domestic angels.

 

[FranciscoB]

I currently have a pair of young adult angels that I grew from babies, and now they have spawned twice. They are in a tank with 3 pearl gouramis (1 male, two females), a few cories and 2 BN plecos. They share a 75g with lots of plants and hideouts. No problems at all. I don't have neons in that tank, bu I have a group of black phantom tetras (larger than neons). I have gad neons with angels before. If the neons are not too small, or if they grow together with the angels, I have not had problems.

 

[PygmyPepperJulli]

IMO, my neons are pretty chunky (not massive, but a lot bigger than when I first get them from the shop). I might feed everyone more (neons will get chunkier and angel will hopefully be less hungry) to see if that helps. Counted the neons this morning and they were all still there, so that's good. Except now I'm worried about the pygmy corydoras. They're quite small (smaller than the neons) and although I know they are spiky and have armour, I feel the angel might be tempted. Will that be an issue?

ED- I read somewhere that wild angels develop the pale yellow/red/orange crown as they get older, while many-generation domesticated ones don't. Sad. Still, he looks pretty good already. He has the red eyes with black bar running through them, and is excellant at camoflage (on the way home he entirely lost his stripes and was pure white in the white bad, but when I puulled him out into the darker car he immediately started striping again... which I find cool).

The pearls seem to be getting on well- it looks like two have already paired (they are together CONSTANTLY) but accept the other one when it joins (it sometimes like to go off by itself). I'm thinking (read: desperately hoping) 1m/2f but no idea. This morning I was going to look at the tails and colours to sex but with only half-tails and too young for colours, who knows. Two of them have a feeler that looks like it has a kink around halfway down- I looked it up and apparently that happens when at some stage it was cut/bitten off and it regrows slightly off. Doesn't damage it, theoretically, and I've seen mine waving them all around the place feeling stuff, so I believe that's ok.

When it comes to bitten tails, how much is it until it doesn't regrow? One of them has the nip all the way near the base until I can't really see the tail, but there's no redness or anything so I hope it recovers. All the others look like it should be fine. It doesn't stop them swimming normally, anyway, so that's good.

Sorry for the long post.

What I'm hearing is, leave the angel in and see how it goes?

 

[Ichthys]

Many Angels don’t get colour, but many do.
These days most don’t get big enough to eat a full grown neon... or at least most will see them as too big to try. A tall tank (so they’re not so close to be an easy lunge) will help. Angels like being near the top and Neons like being near the bottom. Keeping the Angels well fed will also help.
I’d be more worried about the Corys. If they go for them it will be an issue for both of them. The Corys’ pectoral spines will get stuck in the Angel’s cheeks rendering them unmovable. The Cory and the Angel will both probably die.
They may develop issues with the gouramies because they both like to be near the surface. Again, a large tank will help.

Gouramies are sexed most easily by the dorsal fin, not the tail. They only colour up when they’re mature. It’s best to have more females than males. Can you get us some pictures of them?

Fins will grow back as long as they’re not right down to the base, and should only take a few weeks.

 

[Lcc86]

You could try feeding the angelfish first/away from the others to see if that helps reduce any issues. Hopefully it'll be OK, I remember quite a recent thread on here that said angels need minimum 75g but there was lots of disagreement over that and I can't find the thread now.

Perhaps explain to the person who bought you the fish that you really appreciate their thoughtfulness but in future you'd prefer the money so you can get the fish you want yourself. I asked my partner for a betta for Xmas but went and got him myself to make sure it was the right one.

 

[Ichthys]

I remember quite a recent thread on here that said angels need minimum 75g

I remember in the 70s you could find domestic Angels as big as large discus. These days they only get to half that size. You don’t need 75g for just a few. Height (water depth) is more important.

 

[O2Breather]

My experience with Angelfish has not been entirely happy. If there are only two, one bullies the other. If there are three, one bullies a certain other while the third just tries to keep out of it. I had one bad guy that claimed a corner of the tank all to himself. My last Black Angel was killed by a Zebra Angel twice as large when I had to introduce it into the Zebra's tank to use the Black's smaller tank as a hospital for some sick Florida Flag Fish. It was an ill-considered move. Next morning, the poor Black was suspended smack in the middle of the tank, nose up as though facing the sky. It was barely breathing, and its sides looked a bit roughed up, missing a lot of scales. The Zebra had practically killed it somehow. I saw no other wounds, but I couldn't save it. I suppose the Zebra bumped it to death..? Anyway, they're so exotic and graceful, I'm planning to try again.

 

[Ram419]

I've seen aggression issues with my angelfish in a 55 gallon community tank that has guppies, neon tetra, rummynose, glowfish tetra. Nothing terrible but was chasing other fish around alot so I went ahead and moved him out of the community tank to his own. There's another angelfish in the 55 gallon but he got hurt when I first bought him so his swimming ability is much reduced due to loss of some fins, so no aggression from him.

 

[raylove]

My experience is that no matter how many angels you start with, you end up with just one due to aggression and bullying. So, despite the fact that we think of them as social fish, keeping singly is an acceptable option.
Yes, neons are chunky but I kept one with harlequins which are bigger and chunkier. They started to disappear and initially I couldn't believe it was the angel as they were full grown and surely too big for it to eat. Wrong! One day I witnessed the angel stalking a harlequin and whilst he didn't get it on that occasion, a couple of days later I caught him red handed with the harlequins tail sticking out of his mouth, so don't underestimate what they can swallow!
One other thing - harlequins are more likely to frequent the same levels as angels whereas neons generally swim at lower levels amongst the plants, so perhaps they're a bit safer. I wouldn't risk it though and if I ever get another angel it's tank mates would have to be twice as large as a full grown neon for me to feel safe.