Angel Question

[NEONCORY]

Hi I have question for the Angel expert or the person with medication knowledge.

Here is the situation, I got 3 gold Angels in January. At that time 2 were about quarter size and one was bigger and about half dollar size. Since then, one become about the size of tennis ball but the other 2 haven't grow much and they are about half dollar size. And one day last month, I found one of the small one dead. I never know what happened since this happened overnight and I have been keeping them in the same tank for few month. And I don't think I ever see the 2 so called pair up. But I have a little suspicion about 1 may got eliminated.
Since they seems getting along dispite their size difference. I see the bigger one try to peck at the small one now and then. Especially after the water change but I read the Angel tend to do to re-establish the territory. And I never see any serious threat or any bodily injury. On the same token, I would dare add another bigger Angel to see if I can get a pair. So I seem to stuck with this odd sized Angels.
They are in the 20H with 2 small bristlenose and I do 50% water change weekly if not more. I see them both eat. Of course, bigger one is the first one to eat and more but small one does eat his/her share. But it just doesn't seem to grow much.

And friend of mine suggest that the small Angel doesn't grow may have some worms or parasite in the system.
And if so, what is the good course of action to take. I know there is medicated dry food out there. And wondering if that is worth buying and feed them. Or any paticular medication I should try. (I live in U.S, BTW.)

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

[Straydum]

okay first of, angels cohibiting in odd numbers generally do not do as well as those kept in even numbers. from what you wrote, it seems that previously, your smaller pair has sort of paired up (correct me if i;m wrong), if so, then does your bigger angel still pick on them like how it does now?

if it didnt, it was probably due to the fact that the 2 smaller ones were less vulnerable as a pair. this however no longer stands. the recent peckings, though not severe now, may intensify. at the same time, it puts real amounts of stress on your smaller one so i suggest you watch them carefully.

regarding the not growing part, what are you feeding them? and anymore info you can supply?

 

[NEONCORY]

Hi Straydum,
Thanks for the quick reply.

okay first of, angels cohibiting in odd numbers generally do not do as well as those kept in even numbers. from what you wrote, it seems that previously, your smaller pair has sort of paired up (correct me if i;m wrong), if so, then does your bigger angel still pick on them like how it does now?

I thought I read somewhere mentioned odd number is better than even number. Of course if there is a pair, then their own tank would be best. Or maybe they were talking about Discus, I don't remember.
Anyway, like I mentioned, one small one found dead few months ago so now I only have 1 big one and 1 small one. And I know the best way to go about getting compatible pair would be get 6~8 juvi Angels and grow them out and let them pair up. However, when I got them these 3. I got them from another local aquarium society member, and he just sold those 3 in the bag. And I know the 1 was bigger from the start. It was 2 quarter size and 1 half dollar size. It was back in January. They were fine until April. I found 1 of the small one dead in the morning. I didn't see any so called pair up behaviour or aggression toward the small one died.
Like I mentioned, the big one have been peck at the other smaller Angels but it was more of the motion of peck and I don't think I see actually s/he peck at the smaller Angels. Before s/he would peck, the small one swim away a bit and avoid the pecking. After the one small one gone, it is still same. Now and then the bigger one do the motion of pecking but the small one avoid. And it doesn't happen often. Only the time I notice is after I do the water change and big one do more pecking motion when the small one come near him/her. But I thought this is because of the re-establishment of territory. And I never see any aggressive chasing or body bruse or torn fin or anything like that.

if it didnt, it was probably due to the fact that the 2 smaller ones were less vulnerable as a pair. this however no longer stands. the recent peckings, though not severe now, may intensify. at the same time, it puts real amounts of stress on your smaller one so i suggest you watch them carefully.

The degree of pecking haven't changed. Either when I had 2 small one or 1 small one now. I know that 2 is not good to keep if they are not a pair since one is always dominant than the other one. That is why keeping bigger group and pair them up and rehome the rest is good way to go. So any aggression would be spread around. But I never had chance to add more to the original 3 Angels. And I lost one small one in April and I wasn't sure if it is a good idea to add more Angels and what size. But I did keep close eyes on them but the degree of aggression have not changed. But my concern is small one seems not growing much if any. Despite the fact that I see him/her eat his/her share of food.

regarding the not growing part, what are you feeding them? and anymore info you can supply?

I feed mainly flake food since I tried other pellet but they didn't want to eat. I also give occational live food.( I know it is always the debate of the pros and cons of feeding live food) But they do enjoy occational white worms, daphnias and bloodworms. Beside I worry about if they haven't got enough nutrition. I feed flakes twice morning and evening. And I feed the mentioned live food 2~3 times a week few hours after the morning feed. I keep them in 20H ATM with 2 small bristlenose pl*co. And ph is around 7 and around 80F. I don't know about GH since I do not have test for it. I do 50 % water change weekly or sooner. The tank is planted heavy enough there are many hiding spot that I cannot always see them. But I can see both of them when the time to feed. Both of them come near the surface to get food.
Anyway, bigger one is fine s/he has grown since January but the small one just not seems to grow much although s/he have been eating. And wondering if it is some parasitic worm is the cause for this. And what is the best medication avairable in U.S. And is it worth buying and trying the so called medicated food. Thanks for the help.

 

[Straydum]

the other reason i could come up with regarding the peckings is that your angels are probably of the same gender. however normally this only happens in the presence of a female whereby 2 males buff up and try to fight for the right to mate. but now that there's only 2 angels left and the peckings continue. it really puzzles me.

i do agree to the point whereby keeping angels in groups spread out the agression. and that could be the solution. why not get 2 or 4 more angels of roughly a size inbetween. it may change how things goes in there.

for the growing, i would try beefheart and prima and less of white worms and bloodworms. angels at 2 quarts should be able to take adult brine shrimp. it would do better for the angels than daphnias. any leftovers need to be removed right away. even if the fish eventually eat the leftovers, there is too much waste going into the system, causing excess nitrates.
high nitrates will prevent growth and also prevent fish from being able to breed and water changes are the only effective way to remove them. live plants consume nitrates as well. do you vacuum your gravel? it would help to remove any waste or food.

you are probably refering to intestinal parasite tapeworms. it could be the cause too. i would recommend levimisol, prazipro is not bad too. i'm not sure whether they're available in the states. you can try asking your LFS.

hope it helps

 

[NEONCORY]

Hi Straydum,

Thanks again for taking time to diagnose my problem.

So you don't think the pecking or spatting is that S/he is trying to re-establish his/her territory? Because I see it majority of time just after the water change.

I will keep eyes on the Angels that are between the size of my 2 Angels. Although it may not be easy since I probably need bigger tank to house them all than 20H they are in at the moment.

I will look for the medication you suggested although I have no clue if they are easily obtainable around here. Since I think the small one just haven't grown much in 6 months I have him/her.
Like I mentioned I do water change(I water change with vaccum) 50% weekly at least. But more toward to every 4~5 days if I can.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Straydum]

on dominance or territorial aggression, the behavior begins when the two angelfish lock lips, almost looking like they were being very intimate. however, as the behavior continues, it is notable that this is not an affectionate locking of the jaws, but is one of aggression. once they lock jaws, they push as hard as they can towards each other. they typically take intermediate breaths and rest. a watcher can tell that each is out of oxygen and must restore the gas to their bodies in order to continue the behavior. after locking jaws many times and returning to get oxygen, angelfish A retracts its feelers and then bounces them down in display of dominance. it then begins to peck around the bottom of the gills, underneath the mouth on the golden angelfish. this reoccurs several times. angelfish B begins to raise its mouth anticipating the pecks from underneath. A then swims two circles around angelfish B. pecking then continues on the angelfish B. both fish return to the surface for air before A then circles angelfish B twice more. pecks then are repositioned to the angelfish B's head. angelfish B anticipates this peck and "bows down" to the angelfish A before the peck is given. this is done as if to accept the peck on the head. A then pecks on the side behind the eye. angelfish B retracts and swims away. angelfish A then follows in parallel. as they continue in opposite directions, A then sneaks upon angelfish B and begins to peck it on the tailfin. angelfish A continues to peck at the B’s rear and side rear. B always retracts and does not attack with the mouth at any time, and the pecks are allowed.

often seen when two fish competing for any type of space or feeding order. even though in a tank there is no feeding order and all can eat at the same time, the behavior seems to occur from the natural state of the angelfish. space is a major factor in a tank environment, however. if the fish fight for dominance, one fish may be able to claim a specific territory within the tank at any given time. when even the dominant angelfish sees a reflection of itself in a mirror, it will back off from its location.

as for stunted growth, eyes should appear appropriately sized for the fish's body. too large and it may be an indication of a stunted fish.

your water changes are adequate and hence the problem should not lie with the water quality.

i'd stay close to this topic.

 

[NEONCORY]

That is so interesting about their behavior.

I hope it is not too late but I do think the small one have big eyes for his/her body size. I will try to get the med as soon as possible and hopefully s/he will grow.