An Odd Case of Fin Rot

[Kyle E.]

So I started a thread on this a while ago but I thought it would be better to start a new one.

I have a 29g community tank with 5 veiltail cherry barbs (1M 4F), 4 guppies (1M 3F), 1 Dwarf Gourami (M?), 2 Amano Shrimp (?), 1 Nerite Snail (don't really care), and 1 betta splendens (M).

The betta was put in the tank about 2 months(ish) ago. I am quite sure it had fin rot when I got it. I did not quarantine (I know, but I don't exactly have the ability to do so). The tank parameters are fine, no worries there.

I caught the fin rot pretty early, and put salt in at a rate of 1.5 teaspoons per gallon. It seems to have worked on every fish EXCEPT the betta. But it's kinda weird, so let me explain:

Cherry Barbs: They didn't ever really have it, except for one that had half it's tail missing one day when I got home. It is now growing back.

Guppies: Didn't really have it except for the male which had/has quite a ragged tail. Just the end is quite ragged and not a smooth edge like it should be. This got slightly worse soon after I put the salt in but then it stopped, and I haven't noticed it grow back yet but I don't THINK it has gotten worse but not 100% sure.

Dwarf Gourami: It's tail got kind of clear, and got a few small notches in it. It is still quite transparent, and I don't think has really gotten better, but not really gotten worse either.

Betta: The edges of its fins were black, and the edge was getting sort of ragged. It's tail got 2 biggish divots, or notches in it. The top fin (dorsal?) had quite the frayed end, like strings of fin. I didn't really notice this because its kind of hard to see that fin clearly when it is flopped over on the fish lol. Its front hangy fins, not the moving ones, the lower ones that just kind of hang there were quite black. The discoloration went away for the most part after the salt treatment (4 weeks). However a few days after removing the salt the discoloration came back and I think it's fins are getting slowly worse. Very slowly mind you. The edges are definitely black again. So I am wondering why this is happening.

The only thought I have had:
My betta LOVES to rest on the gravel. He is fine, he does swim around and eat fine, it is not him being sick. But he does rest there quite a lot. I have wondered if maybe his fins rubbing on the gravel make them not heal and make the fin rot stick around? Is this possible?

Other than that what do I do now? How long do I have to wait to do a salt treatment again so their organs aren't damaged? It has been 1-2 weeks since I water changed the salt out. I am rather embarrassed that I don't exactly remember lol. Do I need to try meds now? But why do the other fish not still have it?

If I need meds which do I need? Will these affect the live plants (Amazon sword, dwarf hairgrass, frogbit)? Will they affect the snail and shrimp?

@Colin_T I would tag more people but I don't really know who lol.

It's amazing how Colin can help soo many people with their problems and he never seems to not know what to do. Thank you for all you do for us Colin!

 

[Colin_T]

there's no point aging me coz I don't look at them.

The only thought I have had:
My betta LOVES to rest on the gravel. He is fine, he does swim around and eat fine, it is not him being sick. But he does rest there quite a lot. I have wondered if maybe his fins rubbing on the gravel make them not heal and make the fin rot stick around? Is this possible?

yes it is possible. it's the same as having a sore on your back and laying on it at night. You stop it from being able to heal fully.

if you know to tag me you should also know I want pictures, and if this has been ongoing in another thread, post the link to that thread here so I can refer back to it and see what is going on.

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did you do big daily water changes and gravel cleans when this first started?
did you clean the filter when you first started treating them?
what is the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH (in numbers)?

 

[Kyle E.]

So what would I do about the gravel thing?

Mild Fin Rot

Hello all! I have a 29gal tank with a dwarf gourami, cherry barbs, guppies, a male betta (gets along fine), amano shrimp and a nerite snail. About a week ago I noticed symptoms of mild fin rot in my tank. It started with the betta (go figure) getting some "notches" in its tail and now its...

www.fishforums.net

I will get pictures tomorrow as the light is off right now. (You can actually see one of the notches in my profile pic.)

I did more frequent water changes, yes. Not really daily, but shouldn't the salt have killed them regardless? The gravel cleaning is hard because of the hairgrass, so I haven't really been doing that.

I don't know the exact numbers for nitrogen, as I have been putting off getting a test kit. I am 100% sure they are fine though. The fish are all acting normal, but if they start acting weird then I will know something is up.

I clean the filter about every 2 weeks. I did not do a special cleaning for this. Is that good? Bad?

 

[Colin_T]

I did more frequent water changes, yes. Not really daily, but shouldn't the salt have killed them regardless?

If the problem was caused by ammonia damaging the tail, and you didn't do water changes every day or fix the ammonia problem, the ammonia would have continued to damage the tissue and stop it healing even with salt in the water.

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Cleaning the filter every 2 weeks should be fine.
What sort of filter do you have?
How are you cleaning the filter?
Do you replace any of the media/ material when you clean the filter?

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The reason I recommend big daily water changes and gravel cleaning for a week or more is to reduce the number of disease organisms in the water as well as any nutrients that might be causing problems. The cleaner water, gravel and filter all help the fish's immune system heal the fish.

The salt helps to kill harmful pathogens in the water and lets the fish's immune system heal the fish.

The gravel is covered in fish poop, bacteria, viruses, fungus, protozoans and all sorts of nasty things that can irritate and get into damaged tissue. If the fish is sleeping on dirty gravel, it could easily irritate and reinfect the damage tissue.

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If you can't afford a test kit, take a glass full of tank water into the pet shop and ask them to test it for you. Write the results down when they do the tests. If they say the water is fine, ask them what the results are in numbers. We want numbers.

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If you have some floating plants like Water Sprite in the tank, the Betta might sleep in that instead of on the gravel. Otherwise you might need to move him into a bare bottom tank for a while so he can heal up. If that isn't possible, a breeding net can be hung in the main tank and the Betta can go in that for a bit and hopefully he will recover in there.

 

[Kyle E.]

I did not realize ammonia could damage the tail. That may very well be how he got it at the pet shop in the tiny cups.

I have a tetra whisper 40 HOB. I clean the filter by washing the media in the bucket of tank water when I do a water change. Just to keep it from getting clogged up with poo.

I will try to get my water tested. I have frogbit in the tank, but it is still growing, and there is not much of it. I have noticed he is hanging out in it more and more.

I could try a mesh thing. Do you know if I could just use tulle fabric?

Even if he healed by doing a mesh sort of thing, if he slept on the gravel after taking him out of the mesh would he get reinfected? What do you suggest doing about gravel cleaning with newly establishing carpeting plant? I have kind of wondered about getting Malaysian Trumpet Snails for gravel maintenance, is this something I should be doing?

 

[Kyle E.]

Oh its so hard for fish to sit still for a bit.

 

[Kyle E.]

Oh by the way pic 4 is the female cherry barb who at one point had the whole lower part of her fin gone, and it has grown back a lot.

 

[Colin_T]

The way you clean the filter is fine.

No idea about tulle fabric.

Don't add snails to the tank. They are a pain in the butt and can stuff up the motor in power filters when the baby snails get sucked into the filter.

Try to gravel clean areas without plants and lightly hoover above the hair grass plants to suck out any gunk in the leaves.

The gourami could have a damaged tail if it's fighting with the Betta. These are both labyrinth fishes that should not be kept together because they are highly territorial.

If the fish's fins get a chance to heal up completely, then it should be fine after that and sleeping on the substrate should not cause a reinfection. If it does, then the gravel needs to be cleaned.

 

[Kyle E.]

I have not ever seen them fight. They would if the DG challenged the betta back, but the DG just lets the betta run the tank.

The tulle fabric is a mesh fabric. I believe it would be fine but I will research. I have tulle, I do not have a mesh breeder.

By heal up completely do mean the rot needs to stop, or the fins need to grow back completely?

On the snails... The gravel grows a good amount of algae and looks ugly. I know the algae is caused by another problem, and I have an ongoing thread trying to fix that. But it will get dirty no matter what. And the snails would clean all the little nooks and crannies that I can't clean with an algae scraper anyway.

I will see what I do with the snails.

 

[Colin_T]

If you want snails, look for Mystery/ Apple snails or Nerite snails. These are much easier to control than species like Malaysian livebearer snails, Pond (Lymnaea) or Ramshorn snails.

The infection in the fins needs to stop and the fin/s need to grow back.

 

[Kyle E.]

How long do you think that would take?

Added: How long do I need to wait between salt treatments? I would like to add salt while keeping him off of the gravel, but I did salt for 4 weeks at a rate of 1.5 teaspoons per gallon and ended that about 1-2 weeks ago.

 

[Fish4dawin]

@Kyle E. btw your dwarf gourami is a male I believe. Males typically have a pointed dorsal near the end of the dorsal whilst females have a rounded end. Your DG I'm pretty sure is a male. It is odd that your DG and betta don't fight as well. I have a DG with a betta and the DG will chase my betta around if she sees my betta. There has been no damage I think it is more of the get out of my territory thing. My DG and betta are both females.

 

[Kyle E.]

Hmm interesting. Thank you for letting me know! I have been wondering, and I knew that if it was pointy itwas male but I wasn't sure how pointy was pointy lol.

Yeah I don't know how I got lucky with the fighting thing, but I did.

 

[Kyle E.]

@Colin_T

 

[Colin_T]

normally you wait at least a month before using salt again but in emergency situations you can use it a week later. but if there's no improvement after a week of salt at highest dose, then you will need some chemical medication.