Amazonian Biotope

[chadschuster0321]

I'm moving in the next month or so, and I've decided to take my Amazonian fish from my 90 gallon and 36 Gallon and move them into an old 100 Gallon I have, and keep the rest of the fish in the 90 gallon. 
 
STOCKING
 
My Amazonian fish currently go as follows:
6x Corydoras Catfish
2x Angelfish (I originally had 5 but lost 3)
2x Discus
2x Bolvian Rams
1x German Blue Rams
 
Fish I am going to purchase:
3x Angelfish
3x Discus
2x German Blue Rams
6x Rummynose Tetras
6x Neon Tetras
1x Bushynose Pleco
 
Totals at:
5x Angelfish
5x Discus
3x German Blue Rams
2x Bolvian Rams
6x Rummynose Tetras
6x Neon Tetras
6x Corydoras Catfish
1x Bristlenose Pleco
 
Does anyone think this would be overstocked?
 
PLANTING
I've decided that finding Amazonian only plants is going to be too much work, considering I would only consider myself an intermediate fish keeper. I'm going to try and completely fill the tank with plants, does anyone recommend any, Amazonian would be preferred but not necessary.
 
I can't wait till I am able to get to work on this aquarium, please leave your comments and questions below, thanks.

 

[Byron]

I'll begin with the fish species.  First, mixing angelfish and discus is not advisable.  Jack Wattley, one of the most knowledgeable discus breeders alive, has frequently advised against this combination; he says that discus tend to be less aggressive when feeding, and can be easily "bullied" by angelfish.  But there are also other issues.  In your case, if separation (permanent) is not possible, it might be best to leave the 2 angels/3 discus together without increasing either until they can be separated or die naturally, assuming they are managing now.
 
Second, adding new angelfish with existing angelfish rarely works.  Angelfish, like discus, are shoaling fish that live in groups, and they develop hierarchies within the group.  Unless all the fish in the group are acquired at the same time, it is best not to add new fish.  Sometimes aquarists find that combining the fish (old and new) in a different aquarium (i.e., a new environment) together can work, but this depends upon the temperament of the individual fish and is not guaranteed.  The gender of the existing fish is part of this too; two females might fare better, whereas a male likely would not tolerate new arrivals.  And the fish must be of roughly the same age and size.  But again, this may or may not work.
 
Third, tankmates.  Linear fish like rummynose tetra are not advisable with angelfish.  The more disk-shaped characins like Rosy Tetra, Roberti Tetra, and some others are better.  Discus seem to be less trouble in this respect.
 
Temperature is important here.  Discus must have warmth, at least 82F, and rams (the comon or blue varieties) are the same.  Bolivian Rams are fine slightly cooler, but can manage in warmer.  Neon Tetra will not last at such high temperatures, they need it around 75-76F max.  Most corys are the same.  Corydoras sterbai is one that does fine in warmer tanks, and is thus frequently seen with discus, rams and angelfish.  As for the angelfish, wild caught fish need this warmth too, but commercially tank-raised angelfish are OK with "normal" tropical temperatures around 77-78F.  They can manage warmer, but here we get into another temperature issue.  As the temperature gets warmer, the metabolism of all fish increases, because temperature is the driving force.  And the higher the metabolism, the harder on the fish to maintain the internal homeostasis.  This is why continuous high temperature literally burn out fish that are not suited.  A temporary increase such as when treating disease is tolerated (though not by all species), but not permanently.
 
I personally would not combine cichlid species (except in the case of African rift lake cichlids which is a very different thing).  I realize you have had this combination for a while (though I've no idea exactly how long--things do change over time with fish's temperaments and depending upon the environment) but it is still not advisable.
 
Now to the plants.  Amazon sword plants are about the best plants for these fish.  The larger swords (Echinodorus species) and the small chain swords (Helanthium species) work very well.  Light requirement is moderate, suiting the angels and discus that prefer dimly lit tanks, and substrate tabs for the larger plants will provide nutrients as they are heavy feeders.  Floating plants are almost mandatory in any Amazonian aquascape as the fish live in shaded waters and prefer a "roof" above them.  Amazon Frogbit is authentic, but other plants like Water Sprite and Water Lettuce will work, or some of the stem plants; Brazilian Pennywort does very well left floating.  This can also be used in the lower water, as it is one of the few stem plants that manages with less intense light than most.
 
Lots of wood, and sand, complete the authentic aquascape.  I've had several Amazon-theme tanks over the years.  I'll attach a few photos to illustrate.  The first was my 5-foot 115g, the next two the 4-foot 70g at different stages.
 
Byron.

 

[chadschuster0321]

I'll begin with the fish species.  First, mixing angelfish and discus is not advisable.  Jack Wattley, one of the most knowledgeable discus breeders alive, has frequently advised against this combination; he says that discus tend to be less aggressive when feeding, and can be easily "bullied" by angelfish.  But there are also other issues.  In your case, if separation (permanent) is not possible, it might be best to leave the 2 angels/3 discus together without increasing either until they can be separated or die naturally, assuming they are managing now.
 
Second, adding new angelfish with existing angelfish rarely works.  Angelfish, like discus, are shoaling fish that live in groups, and they develop hierarchies within the group.  Unless all the fish in the group are acquired at the same time, it is best not to add new fish.  Sometimes aquarists find that combining the fish (old and new) in a different aquarium (i.e., a new environment) together can work, but this depends upon the temperament of the individual fish and is not guaranteed.  The gender of the existing fish is part of this too; two females might fare better, whereas a male likely would not tolerate new arrivals.  And the fish must be of roughly the same age and size.  But again, this may or may not work.
 
Third, tankmates.  Linear fish like rummynose tetra are not advisable with angelfish.  The more disk-shaped characins like Rosy Tetra, Roberti Tetra, and some others are better.  Discus seem to be less trouble in this respect.
 
Temperature is important here.  Discus must have warmth, at least 82F, and rams (the comon or blue varieties) are the same.  Bolivian Rams are fine slightly cooler, but can manage in warmer.  Neon Tetra will not last at such high temperatures, they need it around 75-76F max.  Most corys are the same.  Corydoras sterbai is one that does fine in warmer tanks, and is thus frequently seen with discus, rams and angelfish.  As for the angelfish, wild caught fish need this warmth too, but commercially tank-raised angelfish are OK with "normal" tropical temperatures around 77-78F.  They can manage warmer, but here we get into another temperature issue.  As the temperature gets warmer, the metabolism of all fish increases, because temperature is the driving force.  And the higher the metabolism, the harder on the fish to maintain the internal homeostasis.  This is why continuous high temperature literally burn out fish that are not suited.  A temporary increase such as when treating disease is tolerated (though not by all species), but not permanently.
 
I personally would not combine cichlid species (except in the case of African rift lake cichlids which is a very different thing).  I realize you have had this combination for a while (though I've no idea exactly how long--things do change over time with fish's temperaments and depending upon the environment) but it is still not advisable.
 
Now to the plants.  Amazon sword plants are about the best plants for these fish.  The larger swords (Echinodorus species) and the small chain swords (Helanthium species) work very well.  Light requirement is moderate, suiting the angels and discus that prefer dimly lit tanks, and substrate tabs for the larger plants will provide nutrients as they are heavy feeders.  Floating plants are almost mandatory in any Amazonian aquascape as the fish live in shaded waters and prefer a "roof" above them.  Amazon Frogbit is authentic, but other plants like Water Sprite and Water Lettuce will work, or some of the stem plants; Brazilian Pennywort does very well left floating.  This can also be used in the lower water, as it is one of the few stem plants that manages with less intense light than most.
 
Lots of wood, and sand, complete the authentic aquascape.  I've had several Amazon-theme tanks over the years.  I'll attach a few photos to illustrate.  The first was my 5-foot 115g, the next two the 4-foot 70g at different stages.
 
Byron.

 
I see what you mean with the food aggressiveness, Discus are very passive, but I've kept them together for a while and every time I feed I make sure the Discus get fed, and they are starting to go up for the food more now. My two angelfish haven't been fighting at all, so I'll keep to the two.
 
Do you think I should up the amount of Discus so that they have a better chance feeding?
 
Why would RNTs be incompatible with the Angelfish? Do they nip? I've never kept them so I'm curious.
 
I'll opt for the corys you recommended.
 
Also, do you know what the little Gourami looking things are that live in the Amazon, I see them all the time with wild Discus. Are there any kind of shrimp that could be in this biotope?
 
 Any kind/brand of substrate you recommend for planting? 
 
Thanks so much for the help, this project is about a month out and I'm still doing my research. I hope this tank can get half as cool as the ones you made.

 

[Byron]

Increasing the discus would be advisable.  However, I do not know the age/size, so I don't know if this is as problematic as it is for angelfish.  Hopefully one of the more experienced discus members can help you with this.
 
Linear small fish can get eaten.  I have known angelfish easily eat tetras; the disk-shaped are better choices.  Sometimes if the fish "grow up" together this seems less risky, but here again it is up to the individual fish's temperament.  I always take the view that fish if healthy will more likely behave normally according to their inherent tendencies, rather than risk something hoping for the best.  When risks work out, it may be OK, but if they don't, you have a situation and options can be limited.  I have 8 tanks in my fish room, and more than once I have had to move a species unexpectedly; without that option, euthanizing the fish or giving them away would be the only solutions.  Your angels are presumably not very young, and they have grown up in "their" space.  The introduction of small linear fish (as new rummys would be) might be seen as intruders or food.
 
I can't picture a gourami-looking Amazon fish...do you have a photo showing these?
 
I use play sand for my substrates.  It is inert, natural, and safe.  If corys are intended, sand is your only real option.
 
Byron.

 

[chadschuster0321]

Increasing the discus would be advisable.  However, I do not know the age/size, so I don't know if this is as problematic as it is for angelfish.  Hopefully one of the more experienced discus members can help you with this.
 
Linear small fish can get eaten.  I have known angelfish easily eat tetras; the disk-shaped are better choices.  Sometimes if the fish "grow up" together this seems less risky, but here again it is up to the individual fish's temperament.  I always take the view that fish if healthy will more likely behave normally according to their inherent tendencies, rather than risk something hoping for the best.  When risks work out, it may be OK, but if they don't, you have a situation and options can be limited.  I have 8 tanks in my fish room, and more than once I have had to move a species unexpectedly; without that option, euthanizing the fish or giving them away would be the only solutions.  Your angels are presumably not very young, and they have grown up in "their" space.  The introduction of small linear fish (as new rummys would be) might be seen as intruders or food.
 
I can't picture a gourami-looking Amazon fish...do you have a photo showing these?
 
I use play sand for my substrates.  It is inert, natural, and safe.  If corys are intended, sand is your only real option.
 
Byron.

 
Here's the fish I was talking about
https/gyazo.com/aa094631475fcb3e7de58e042624758f
 
I see what your saying about the Rummynoses. What do you think about Penguin Tetras? They are a bit bigger, I know they are from South America, I'm not sure if they would be Amazonian however.
 
I use Play Sand in my current Aquarium and use a planted aquarium substrate in the areas with plants. How do you keep your plants so green?

 

[Byron]

The pictured fish is another cichlid, Mesonauta festivus, sometimes commonly called Flag Chichlid or Festivum Cichlid.  Info here:
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/mesonauta-festivus/
 
I've never kept this species personally, but it is said to be fairly peaceful.  But I repeat my earlier suggestion not to combine cichlids.  The cichlids themselves will be more "relaxed" if they are in a spacious tank with other non-cichlids around them.
 
Which brings me to the Penguin Tetra, Thayeria boehlkei.  Of the three species in the genus, this is the one most often seen in the hobby as the "Penguin" Tetra.  This species was initially confused with the true Penguin, T. obliqua.  The more common fish is probably the more distinctive, as the black strip extends full-length, whereas it is only in the caudal fin of the true Penguin, and I suspect this is why it is more common.  I've never kept these two, as I always have the pencilfishes that also swim obliquely and in the upper level, especially Nannostomus eques.  But T. boehlkei is recommended as suitable for peaceful fishes including angelfish, though it comes with a warning of fin nipping unless kept in large shoals.  Personally I would not mix this with discus.  Temperature-wise, the warm 82F+ would be really pushing it for this characin.  It is always wisest to keep fish in the middle of their given ranges for temperature as this means their metabolism will function best, and the fish will be less stressed.
 
"Amazonian" is generally intended to mean the Amazon basin, not just the river itself.  The Amazon basin in area is about the size of the continental USA minus Texas (if memory serves me).  Still a huge area.  But within such a vast area there are obviously different habitats though the similarities outweigh the differences generally.
 
I use substrate tabs, one next to each of the large swords.  I use liquid fertilizers, but sparingly, as they can easily cause problem algae, increased organics, etc.  Flourish Comprehensive Supplement is one I am now using, along with Flourish Trace and Flourish Iron.  Over months I have experimented with doses of these, individually and collectively, and come up with what tends to work, but each tank can be unique.  I have one tank in which I only use Iron now, or the water clouds with an organic bloom.  Discontinuing plant additives except for the tabs and iron has improved this, several times, so I know it is related.

 

[chadschuster0321]

The pictured fish is another cichlid, Mesonauta festivus, sometimes commonly called Flag Chichlid or Festivum Cichlid.  Info here:
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/mesonauta-festivus/
 
I've never kept this species personally, but it is said to be fairly peaceful.  But I repeat my earlier suggestion not to combine cichlids.  The cichlids themselves will be more "relaxed" if they are in a spacious tank with other non-cichlids around them.
 
Which brings me to the Penguin Tetra, Thayeria boehlkei.  Of the three species in the genus, this is the one most often seen in the hobby as the "Penguin" Tetra.  This species was initially confused with the true Penguin, T. obliqua.  The more common fish is probably the more distinctive, as the black strip extends full-length, whereas it is only in the caudal fin of the true Penguin, and I suspect this is why it is more common.  I've never kept these two, as I always have the pencilfishes that also swim obliquely and in the upper level, especially Nannostomus eques.  But T. boehlkei is recommended as suitable for peaceful fishes including angelfish, though it comes with a warning of fin nipping unless kept in large shoals.  Personally I would not mix this with discus.  Temperature-wise, the warm 82F+ would be really pushing it for this characin.  It is always wisest to keep fish in the middle of their given ranges for temperature as this means their metabolism will function best, and the fish will be less stressed.
 
"Amazonian" is generally intended to mean the Amazon basin, not just the river itself.  The Amazon basin in area is about the size of the continental USA minus Texas (if memory serves me).  Still a huge area.  But within such a vast area there are obviously different habitats though the similarities outweigh the differences generally.
 
I use substrate tabs, one next to each of the large swords.  I use liquid fertilizers, but sparingly, as they can easily cause problem algae, increased organics, etc.  Flourish Comprehensive Supplement is one I am now using, along with Flourish Trace and Flourish Iron.  Over months I have experimented with doses of these, individually and collectively, and come up with what tends to work, but each tank can be unique.  I have one tank in which I only use Iron now, or the water clouds with an organic bloom.  Discontinuing plant additives except for the tabs and iron has improved this, several times, so I know it is related.

 
I'll probably go for one of the tetras you recommended then.
 
Do you know any good websites to purchase plants? 

 

[Byron]

If it was just the discus and no angelfish, it would be a bit easier to find companions as they are less likely to go after small linear fish.  But there are still a number of suitable fish, just avoid any prone to fin nip, and stay with quiet, sedate swimmers.  The Rosy and Roberti I mentioned, there is also the Red and Black Phantom (the Red is especially colourful), maybe Bleeding Hearts (much larger).
 
I have acquired all my plants locally, as getting them across the border is not easy (either way), so I don't know sources in the US.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I've bought really nice plants from this place on eBay.

http/stores.ebay.com/thegreenhabitat/


Still may want to check for snails when they come in (or dip them to be on safe side) but these are the cleanest I've ordered from. And really great shipping and great looking plants when they come in.

 

[chadschuster0321]

So... we've decided to postpone our move because capital gains are going to ruin us economically, and we're going to wait until we've owned our home for 5 years to avoid them.
 
That being said, I was really excited about the build, so I'm deciding to go through with it before I move. I transferred my Brackish fish a few days ago, and they are doing great. I've got the 100's hardscape nearly finished, I'll probably go buy some plants this weekend, I've found that PetCo has some GREAT prices on plants and a pretty decent variety, I'm probably going to buy out their whole shipment.
 
FILTRATION
Del Ray 125 Wet Dry Filter with a Penguin 350 Canister filter, I want over filtration.
 
LIGHTING
Current USA Satellite Freshwater 48' with some leftover LED lights I had.
 
Expect some pictures soon.

 

[chadschuster0321]

I moved my fish a few days back, so far so good. I bought some plants from PetCo, spent about $25 and have a good 1/5th of the planned planted area filled in. Plants and fish are doing well.
 
Current stocking levels:
2x Angelfish
2x Discus
3x Cories
1x Bolvian Ram
1x German Blue Ram
 
Anyone suggest any surface plants for shade?

 

[Byron]

Anyone suggest any surface plants for shade?
 

 
I answered this in post #2,
 
Floating plants are almost mandatory in any Amazonian aquascape as the fish live in shaded waters and prefer a "roof" above them.  Amazon Frogbit is authentic, but other plants like Water Sprite and Water Lettuce will work, or some of the stem plants; Brazilian Pennywort does very well left floating.  This can also be used in the lower water, as it is one of the few stem plants that manages with less intense light than most.