Am I In A Mess ?

[jace]

Hello all,
Here is my story. New to fish ownership, I recently purchased a 10gal tropical tank setup approx 6 weeks ago, from what I believe a not so trust worthy LFS (big chain). Setup system per instructions, let tank set for 48 hours and slowly began a fish-in-cycle process per my LFS. At week 2 I had a extremely dirty tank. My fish stock consisted of 4 neon tetras, 2 guppies, 1 algea eater, and 1 african dwarf frog, all phased in slowly. After consulting with my LFS I did a 30% water change and filter change. within an hour I had 4 dead neons, and extremely high ammonia readings. Consulted LFS they recomended drop in tablets to fix amonia levels, by next day, I had a dead guppy and algea eater.
By now I had lost faith in my LFS and decided to get a second opinion from another LFS. I took them a water sample, and they said I was still in the middle of a cycle and to not add anymore fish, do not add any more tablet suppliments (IE, ammonia killer, etc.) and to let the natural proccess take over and by doing the water and filter change I had basically had started the cycle process all over again (this made sense).
I waited 2 weeks and went back with another sample sunday and was told I was still in the middle of a cycle and to wait 2 more weeks. Sunday amonia was at 1 and nitrites still a little high. Took a reading last night and levels are still the same as sunday.
My questions are, am i stuck in some sort of cycle lock that my readings are not changing in a week to a week and a half time period ? Am I getting good advice from my 2nd LFS. There suggestions seem to be on mark with what I'm reading here. I still have 1 guppy and 1 A.D.F that are surviving from the original start up and am only adding aquarium salt to help them tolerate the environment.
Thank you in advance for the help and sorry this is long winded, but i tried to be as detailed as possible.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Yes, the 2nd LFS is giving you a little better info than the other LFS.

We need to know you water parameters, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH?

Is is very possible that you pH has fallen to an un-save level and is stalling your cycle.

Also, ammonia and nitrite is fatal to your fish if they are over .25 ppm.

Also, Neon Tetras need at least a 6+ month fully established tank to live in. A tank that the water parameters are really stable, unlike your change water parameters at this time.

What you need to do now is, keep on doing water changes to keep your ammonia and nitrite level as close to zero as possible.

If you have not done so already, go out and purchase a good liquid test kit. The API Fresh Water Master test kit is a really good test kit and is a fair price!

But you NEED to do water changes to keep your ammonia and nitrite level at or below .25 ppm at all cost! Ammonia will give you fish permanent gill damage if over .25 ppm, and nitrite will give your fish permanent nerve damage if over .25 ppm. And if left exposed too long to these levels, your fish can easily die, as you already witnessed.

Over time the good bacteria in your filter will colonize enough to process your ammonia and nitrite levels.

Oh yeah, NEVER change out your filter media unless it is physically falling apart! Your filter is the house to the beneficicl bacteria that keep your water parameters under control.

Have a read here:
[URL="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=271928&hl="]http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=271928&hl=[/URL]
[URL="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=224306"]http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=224306[/URL]

-FHM

 

[jace]

thanks for the quick reply.

PH has been around 7.6
Nitrites 1.0
Nitrates 40
Ammonia 1.0

These numbers have been fairly conistant for the past week

 

[fatheadminnow]

thanks for the quick reply.

PH has been around 7.6
Nitrites 1.0
Nitrates 40
Ammonia 1.0

These numbers have been fairly conistant for the past week

What kind of test kit are you using?

First thing is first, and that is a water change (WC)!

You need to do water changes to get your ammonia and nitrite level down as close to zero as possible.

If yu do a 50% WC, that would bring the ammonia and nitrite down to .5 ppm. then a 50% WC from there will bring it down to .25%

So, If I were you, do at least a 75% water change, check the parameters about an hour later and do another water change if necessary.

DO NOT change anything in your filter!

Also, do you use a water conditioner when adding water to the tank?

If not, you need to get a water conditioner, or as I like to call it, "dechlor."

-FHM

 

[jace]

I use an API master test kit.

yes I have a declorinator that I add to tap water.

Thanks again for the help. I'll do a water change tonight.

 

[fatheadminnow]

I use an API master test kit.

yes I have a declorinator that I add to tap water.

Thanks again for the help. I'll do a water change tonight.

Okay, that is really good test kit!

Yeah, do as many water changes as necessary to get the ammonia and nitrite level down as close to zero as possible.

Note: You are probably going to be doing water changes everyday for the next couple of weeks at minimum!

So, get into a habit of checking you water every day, if not twice a day, and then do water changes accordingly!

Until the bacteria colonize enough to process the ammonia and nitrite, you will need to do WC's!

-FHM

 

[waterdrop]

Agree... good advice from FHM on all counts.

Water changes will be your friend. Whenever your ammonia results get above 0.25ppm you'd want to take immediate action to drop them as close to zero ppm as possible. With the numbers you have you should start with multiple 70-75% changes with an hour between. Use good technique: Dose your conditioner per instrucs or even 1.5x instrucs and roughly temperature match the return water (your hand is good enough.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[jace]

Thanks for all the help. will changing the water that often, prolong the time it takes for my tank to start it's natural cycle process ?

 

[fatheadminnow]

Thanks for all the help. will changing the water that often, prolong the time it takes for my tank to start it's natural cycle process ?

No.

The autotrophic bacteria that colonize to process ammonia and nitrite, life in our filters, NOT in the water column.

So, by doing water changes you are not taking out any of the beneficial bacteria, instead in your case, you are just taking out ammonia/nitrite/nitrate and bringing them down to safe levels.

-FHM

 

[jace]

ok, been doing partial water changes for the last few days. My ammonia has dropped to zero, but my nitrites are still hanging around 1.0 Is this normal, or shouldn't they be closer to zero as well ?

 

[waterdrop]

I know it feels hard to believe but nitrites of 1.0ppm mean that your water changes are definately not large enough or frequent enough or both. Water changes need to be done with a gravel cleaning siphon and the gravel should be cleaned deeply as the water change is done. Ask here if you need help with that technique. You can do water changes down to just enough water for the fish to still have room in above the substrate. Turn off filter and heater if they are uncovered by the change, then get them running properly again as soon as water is back in. Be sure to condition and roughly temperature match on all water changes. Another large water change can be done as soon as an hour after the previous one. Sometimes it takes a series of large changes to kind of get things down close to zero and then after that it will be easier maintaining it. For each 1ppm of ammonia, the A-Bacs will transform it into 2.7ppm of nitrite, so that may be why this appears more stubborn. There is also some feeling that nitrite may use charge properties to hang closer to the substrate materials, making the deep gravel cleaning more effective at lowering it.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[aussieant32]

yer really you need it at 0, its good your amonia is gone, but you will still need to be doing changes as it may creep back up, when your nitrates sky rocket and your nitrites are at 0, do a 75-90% change and your cycling is complete! Sounds like the first shop was just trying to sell fish and not care for their well being, id advise not to go back!

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, its true that a 90% water change is what's done at the end of a "Fishless" Cycle but in a "Fish-In" cycling situation, like in this thread, the way to tell you are at the end of cycling (usually after a month of hard work!) is when you can go two full days without changing any water and still have both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) stay at zero ppm. Once that happens, you do a sort of "qualifying week" where you watch it continue to test out the same way and after that you can consider your first addition of 2 or 3 fish if you still have room for more in your stocking level.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[aussieant32]

ah, did a skim read and thought all the fish had died, my bad, it is 6 am here so pay no attention lol!!

 

[waterdrop]

Haha, you must be in Aus? The UKers are busy having their last flurry of evening time on the forum, lol, while I'm trying to just get home from the office.