Almost Ready To Start Cycling

[moochy13]

i just about have my tank set up, but i'd like to get a few opinions on a couple of things. the tank is abuot 130L (about 30-33 gallons i think) and is 48x12x14, so quite long and thin. it has a 70/30 sand gravel bottom and i intend on using real plants. so onto the questions. the filter and lights have been donated so am unsure how to use them.

1. i have asked this somewhere else, but id like some more opinions. i have 2 T5 36W 38" lights. one labelled 'daytime' one labelled 'pink plant growth' - some sort of uv i think. do i need both, if not which should i use ?

2. i have a juwel filter but i have shortened it DIY style as it was too tall for the tank. i carefully removed length from the plastic case and the 'divider' in the middle that the pump sits on. any holes or vents lost have been redrilled/cut. the design is exactly the same as original, just a bit shorter. i cant see a problem with this, but am unsure how to arrange the filter media. from top down - white flossy stuff, black pad, green pad, blue pad, box of filter gravel stuff. all proper juwel. should the arrangement sit right on the bottom of the filter case, or should there be a gap between the floor and gravel box ? if it doesnt work i will just buy a new filter. i could really do with saving the money though.

3. also given a tube heater. will it be sufficient to house this in the filter box, as is the case in the smaller tank ?

4. the tank is being set up to house fish that shouldnt be in my smaller tank. i have put a piece of filter sponge in the small tank filter and intend to move it over to the new tank. when will it have sufficient bacteria to be worth moving over to the new tank ?

5. it will be infinitely easier for me to fill the tank with a hose from the garden tap (the tank is upstairs). is this acceptable and is there a problem with putting tapsafe dirently in the tank ?

6. now i know my tank is overstocked i want to hurry up and remove fish from it. with the pre-cultured sponge im putting in, im leaning towards pulling 1 or 2 fish from the overstocked tank ASAP. there a few different fish i will eventually be moving, but which would be good to move first ? i have a couple of red eye tetras that will be moved and if something goes drastically wrong its not the end of the world, as oppose to the juvenile sailfin plec im also moving which id hate to lose. i have 2 penguin tetras that could be the chosen fish, or an inch long algae eater. a 2.5 inch syno is an option also. so which would be best to begin a fish in cycle ?

from what ive read, other than checking the water and doing water changes is there anything im missing from doing a fish in cycle ? i wouldnt mind doing a fishless but my tank is well overstocked as some of you know.

sorry for the long post, we learn from our mistakes and i dont want to cock this up again.

 

[waterdrop]

Well, you have 130L/34G with 72 watts of light and 2.1 watts/gallon, which is borderline between what liquid carbon dosing might support and when additional CO2 might be needed, you'd just have to see what happens, but I'd not plant until after you are through with the fish-in cycling. The daylight and pink tubes might turn out to provide some rather nice coloring in a planted tank so I'd wait until you're planted to make any judgment and later you could get a different spectrum of tube if you wanted.

I'll leave the filter and heater questions to others that might have this equipment. Note that if you don't know then you first determine the direction of water flow within the filter box and then consider that you should generally move from coarse to fine along that path. (For example, these are different media, but I like to use large ceramic rings first, capped by a coarse sponge, followed by medium ceramic gravel capped by polyfloss or a fine sponge and then polyfloss. The water flow would begin through the large rings and end through the fine floss.)

Its fine to refill tanks with hoses (run out any water that might have been stagnant in the hose first) and to dose the conditioner directly to the tank. Its important though to calculate your conditioner amount based on the entire tank water volume when you do this, even if you are only doing a partial water change. (This is because there are organics in the direct tank that will diminish the effectiveness of the conditioner.) Also, you are beginning a new tank and biofilter and during the first 6 months or so I feel you should give some extra insurance to the young bacterial colonies, dosing the conditioner at 1.5x to 2x (but not more than 2x) what the instructions say. This is not because the manufacturer has calculated wrong but because the water authorities sometimes "shock" the water with extra chlorine products. Staying below 2x keeps the conditioner from slowing the growth of the N-Bac species, which are still fragile at this stage.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[moochy13]

thanks. going by the juwel filter in the little tank, and also the instructions, the water goes in the top and is drawn through to the bottom. which means the box of filter media is the last place the water gets to, and the thin white 'flossy' sheet is the first bit. is there a reason i couldnt change the order about ? you say go from coarse to fine, the juwel filters seem to go the opposite way far as i can tell. i know the one in the small tank is set up right, so i just copied it into the bigger one and added the box of media.

thanks for your help

 

[Timmy_Bee]

I'v got a Juwel and it works by cycling the water through the box. You have got water inlets at the top and the bottom, but the powerhead sucks water from the bottom. The different grades of media are more about healthy bacteria colonies than filtering the water for bits of poo. So the fine stuff gets rid of the gunky in your tank, and the coarse stuff is where the long-term bacterial colonies live.

You want the coarse at the bottom, and the fine at the top, with either a bit of filter floss right on top, or the 'filter pads' you can buy, which is basically the same but in a square.
As for the heater, if it fits in the filter box, then whack it in.

As for the rest of your questions, i think WD has answered them all

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, one of the nice things about the biological function of a filter is that to a reasonable extent it takes care of itself as long as you provide enough surface area and these days most of us are providing more than enough surface area and understand not to "throw that surface area out each month!" The mechanical function is still important though as that is what traps and keeps organic material more within the filter and less within the tank outside the filter, thus creating a higher ammonia concentration in the filter box, helping further to feed the bacteria. If the mechanical function is less effective, the substrate and water are not quite as clean and the bacteria have a little less to thrive on and the algae might have a little more trace ammonia to trigger them.

Different filter designers design different stacks and water paths. If good designers were involved (Fluval have good internal filter designs and sometimes I think Juwels go along similar lines) then it often makes sense to take your ques from what they recommend. It occurs to me that having the fine pad at the top at least makes it handy for more frequent replacement. And in fact it might need more frequent replacement than if it were last in the path because being at the beginning and being fine, it will trap both large and small organic debris. Of course, another positive of this would be to keep your biomedia from getting clogged quite as soon, which is more important in smaller filters and less a problem with larger beds of filtration.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[moochy13]

thanks that covers most of them. just still wondering how long to leave my sponge in the smaller tank's filter before its got enough bacteria on it to make a difference in the new tank ?

and also which fish would be suitable for a fish in cycle ? i dont know if im barking up the wrong tree, but im assuming the fish will replace the ammonia i'd be putting in in a fishless cycle. so which fish would be of equal ammonia production to putting some in by hand ?

my filter is setup as you say, so it looks like its good to go on that front.

 

[waterdrop]

Realistically it might take about a month for the sponge put in to the little filter to become a mature sponge.

What kind of water stats are you getting in the overstocked tank? Are you seeing ammonia and nitrite? Are there fish aggression problems (sorry if I've missed other threads.)?

I'm just worried that you're going out of the frying pan in to the fire. Putting some of the fish in to a new tank that's basically going to remain uncycled for some time is going to mean them possibly fighting for life and death and they may not be in that bad a situation right now despite being overstocked. Fish-In Cycling can and does kill fish in many cases. But I realize I'm coming in to this late and don't know the whole story.

The goals in a fish-in cycle are completely different than a fishless cycle. You stop worrying about the bacteria almost at all. Instead of having a high ammonia concentration, you want ammonia to stay close to zero, and nitrite along with it. The health of the fish becomes all important. You must figure out a percentage and frequency of water changes that keeps you in a narrow band of between zero ppm and 0.25ppm for both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) until you can be home again (from work or school or sleep etc.) to change water again. Depending on the number and size of fish, this can be easy or hard.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[moochy13]

quick update - the tank is now full of water with everything running and the wood/rocks set up about how i want them. in answer to the above, i dont have a test kit at the moment, will have to wait till payday and i think ill get a liquid kit instead of the strips. last time i got it tested the results werent good though - im talking nearly 3 figures for nitrates. however ive been much more on top of water changes and less feeding since then, and none of my fish are ill. i dont have any aggression problems other than maybe once a week a black shark and odessa barb will have a bit of a spat, but its over very quickly and 99% of the time they ignore each other.

i am home a lot of the time, so regular checks and maintenance on the tank for the first couple of months is not a problem. my work gets busy towards xmas, but i would hope the tank would be relatively settled by then. my DIY filter adjustment seems to be working perfectly, ive got good flow and the water surface is well agetated. the lid isnt pretty, but a layer of black stick on vinyl should sort it until i can afford a proper hood.

one more question - my tank isnt planted yet, will plants help or hinder cycling ? are plants fussy about growing in sand instead of gravel ? also opinions on a backing. im not sure what to go for ?

heres some pics - wont be to everybodies taste, but im envisioning it with lots of plants and a backing sheet. i might remove some of the stones at teh front to free up some more floorspace and make it easier to clean.

 

[Squidward]

Have you thought of using one of the "bacteria in a bottle" type products?
I know that there are many people who think it's a load of nonsense. But I used Tetra Safestart and it is brilliant.

 

[moochy13]

i had thought about it but like you heard they were pretty much useless. i can understand the theory behind them being snake oil, not being able to live in a bottle and everything.

 

[Squidward]

I am sure this has probably been debated before. But I used Safe Start to cycle my Malawi tank when I set it up originally and the stuff is brilliant.
Day 1: bottle of Safe start.
A few days later: 6 fish
A week later: Another 15 fish
A month after that: Another 15 fish.

Never had 1 ammonia or Nitrite spike.

I have a theory as to why some people say Safe Start is brilliant, while others say it useless. Just my thoughts but:
The info on the label says "Store at room temperature, Do not freeze, or allow to exceed 30*C". Makes sense, there is live bacteria in the bottle. So now, Mr Delivery Man has been driving around to all the fish shops in the area with his goods (among them Safe Start) on a nice sunny summer's day. Now we all know what happens in the back of a vehicle - it gets boiling hot and probably well exceeds the recomended max temp. And the opposite happens in winter.
So if you buy a bottle, that hasn't been properly stored in transit, of course it won't work.

My 2p anyway.

 

[moochy13]

i might buy a bottle and see how it goes. it cant hurt. and if your theory is correct, i guess this is a good time of year to buy some.

any idea is planting up now will help me ? i was going to leave it until i was happy with the water as its one less thign to worry about, but if i helps the cycle ill get some in.

 

[Squidward]

i might buy a bottle and see how it goes. it cant hurt. and if your theory is correct, i guess this is a good time of year to buy some.

any idea is planting up now will help me ? i was going to leave it until i was happy with the water as its one less thign to worry about, but if i helps the cycle ill get some in.

You can plant now. Not a problem.