After 7 months of healthy fish, total die-off. Help!

[StevenF]

Was that the tank, tap, or debasing storage bucket. If possible could you get the numbers for all 3? Also on average how long do you let the water degas in the bucket before use?

Your alkalinity is definitely too low. adding calcium carbonate will resolve that but It might make your water hard. The other thing you could do is allow water to site in your degassing bucket longer to allow more of the acid to degas out of the water. When all the acid outgases the ph should rise to hopefully at least PH6. At that point calcium carbonate could be added without significantly hardening the water. Allowing the water to outgas more is probably your best path to resolve this.

 

[Aquatony]

Steven, these are TANK numbers.

I just did another 95% water change.

I am reading the pH every hour.

@0hr=8.4
@2hr=7.2
@4 hr =7.2 probably closest but looks like fading - API kit says 6.6-6.8

I took 16 fl.oz tap water which is currently degassing in a closet away from everything else which might contaminate it. I'll test it tomorrow morning.

 

[Aquatony]

Update: So overnight, about 14 hours after last night's big water change, the pH has held steady at 6.6. I tested it 3 times with API and with the Tetra Easy Strip.

The outgassed water from last night was about the same, interestingly enough, maybe a touch closer to alkaline at 6.8. But a far cry from the 8.4 it comes out of the tap.

 

[StevenF]

The outgassed water from last night was about the same, interestingly enough, maybe a touch closer to alkaline at 6.8. But a far cry from the 8.4 it comes out of the tap.

Keep monitoring the test bucket for a few more days. One test per day is all that is need. normally water from the tap typically goes from acidic to a higher PH. However there is one gas that I know of that if it is in the water will cause the PH to go from high to low as it outgases. IF you haven't don this, Please test your tap water for ammonia and nitrite.

 

[Aquatony]

The tap water is free of ammonia and nitrite.

Byron states that municipalities add things like soda ash to the water to artificially increase pH, but soda ash is short lived and dissipates, leaving the original pH. That is a crummy paraphrase of what he says but, it seems to make more sense than our water supply being contaminated or off. We have one of the largest and most professional utility districts in California. But I did test for ammonia and nitrite again, it is clear in both fresh tap and outgassed tap.

Just so we're talking about the same thing, when I say outgassed tap, I mean tap water that I put into a container, leave uncovered, and let sit in an area like a closet for a period of time.

 

[StevenF]

Byron states that municipalities add things like soda ash to the water to artificially increase pH, but soda ash is short lived and dissipates, leaving the original pH.

Sorry I missedThat, it does make sense. Soda ash is sodium bicarbonate NaCO3 it is alkaline and will rase PH. But will react with residual chlorine, nitrate, and sulfates in the aquarium forming salts that have minimal effect on ph. It doesn't evaporate and is still present in your aquarium but in a different form.

The only question now is how the PH in your sample glass changes over time. IF it doesn't drop very low Sea shells should work. If it does drop very low seashells might make the water hard and might dissolve rapidlyand we might have to use a different solution.

 

[Aquatony]

Tap sample, still 6.6-6.8 today.
Fish tank, still 6.4-6.6ish today.

ok, so I was at my awesome LFS, and spoke to the owner.

He sold me some aragonite. I decided to go ahead and buy it even though the pH is holding steady at 6.6ish (the color on API kit looks like a combo of two high 6 colors, kind of an aquamarine color). The params are still 0.0 ppm ammonia, 0.0 ppm nitrite, and 0.5 ppm nitrate (sliiiight orange tint). Cycle seemed good. So I bought 4 Cardinal Tetras, which last I remember, are good with pH down to 5.5, and I'll monitor closely to ensure the tank pH doesn't drop that low, even if I have to water change semi-daily instead of weekly.

I think going forward I will also do as Byron suggested and do larger water changes. A friend of mine in the aquarium hobby said 10% weekly was good but he has much much larger tanks (a 55, and a 90). So 10% of 90 might be more useful?

Final thought as I monitor my new tetras who seem happy on hour #4 in the tank.

I have a Penguin 75 Bio-wheel filter on the tank. I have been changing the filter (not the bio-wheel, the Rite-Size "A" filter in the rear) every 2 weeks. Is that too much? Again, on advice of my friend.

Thank you!~!

 

[Byron]

Tap sample, still 6.6-6.8 today.
Fish tank, still 6.4-6.6ish today.

ok, so I was at my awesome LFS, and spoke to the owner.

He sold me some aragonite. I decided to go ahead and buy it even though the pH is holding steady at 6.6ish (the color on API kit looks like a combo of two high 6 colors, kind of an aquamarine color). The params are still 0.0 ppm ammonia, 0.0 ppm nitrite, and 0.5 ppm nitrate (sliiiight orange tint). Cycle seemed good. So I bought 4 Cardinal Tetras, which last I remember, are good with pH down to 5.5, and I'll monitor closely to ensure the tank pH doesn't drop that low, even if I have to water change semi-daily instead of weekly.

I think going forward I will also do as Byron suggested and do larger water changes. A friend of mine in the aquarium hobby said 10% weekly was good but he has much much larger tanks (a 55, and a 90). So 10% of 90 might be more useful?

Final thought as I monitor my new tetras who seem happy on hour #4 in the tank.

I have a Penguin 75 Bio-wheel filter on the tank. I have been changing the filter (not the bio-wheel, the Rite-Size "A" filter in the rear) every 2 weeks. Is that too much? Again, on advice of my friend.

Thank you!~!

Are you intending on acquiring more cardinal tetra? I would get at least 7-8 (total, so another 3-4) minimum. A few more would be even better for the fish. If you want to see if these make it first, that's OK; this is not a species where acquisition must be complete at one go, so you can add more if all's well. Just don't let it go too long, as the fish once they settle will be under stress with so few.

Re the aragonite, fine, but go easy. How are you going to use it? One teaspoon is all you might need, so start with that. I put half a cup in the filter of my 90g tank and it sent the pH soaring from 6 up to 7.8 overnight. Lesson learned. It also can take a few days for everything to balance out, so add the small amount, then test daily or twice daily for several days to see what happens. If nothing, you can add another teaspoon next week, then test similarly,etc.

Water changes. A 10% water change on a 90g tank is frankly useless and a waste of your friend's time. I think I went into this somewhere...too many threads confuse me.

I have no experience with those filters, but media should be rinsed well frequently but need not be replaced unless it no longer performs the task/function. Generally. I replace my "fine pad" the white one, in my canisters at every cleaning which is now every 6 weeks, as they get so clogged I cannot possibly rinse them so they still function.

Byron.

On the pH of tap water and using soda ash...I am going to let some tap water sit out for a few days and do spot tests. Steven has intrigued me. I have tested 24 hours previously and it remained 7.0 so no CO2 out-gassing, but the tanks remain at their lower levels no matter how much water I change, and someone elsewhere told me it was because soda ash has no "staying power" and dissipates out, much like chlorine. I will do this testing to see just what happens.

 

[Aquatony]

We definitely intend to get more Cardinals. I didn't want to get an entire shoal just to have them dead in 2 hours. So far the 4 we have are swimming together and seem to be adjusting nicely. The pH of the tank is 6.4-6.6 hard to tell color-wise, but that seems great.

I have the driftwood in a bucket and will be monitoring the pH. I am hoping to get the driftwood back into the tank, but want to make sure it wasn't affecting pH inappropriately.

Thanks for all the help. I feel a lot more confident now than I did a few days ago!

I also bought a bottle of Prime and will use that instead of AmQuel, as Prime appears to be the most recommend product here.

 

[StevenF]

Sorry I missedThat, it does make sense. Soda ash is sodium bicarbonate NaCO3 it is alkaline and will rase PH. But will react with residual chlorine, nitrate, and sulfates in the aquarium forming salts that have minimal effect on ph. It doesn't evaporate and is still present in your aquarium but in a different form.

Note that statement applies to the aquarium. Not a glass of water. In an aquarium there is a lot of chemistry going on in the plants and in the water. In a glass just sitting there there is very little chemistry going on. No plants to absorb nutrients and no fish waste. In a fertilizer potassium nitrate is a common source of nitrogen. Plants generally need more nitrogen than potassium so the plant may consume the nitrate and eject the potassium back into the water. Potassium will immediently react with something else in the aquarium. Also as the plants consume nutrients the ratio of acids to alkaly minerals will change and that will cause the PH to change. I frequently see PH changes when I use Potassium nitrate. KH and GH can also change. Acids oxygen, and CO2, and ammonia will outgas. but Metals such as potassium and sodium will stay behind. In a tank with high light, CO2, and fertilizers may explain why Algae tends to die back in tanks were Estimative Index fertilization is used.

 

[Aquatony]

Figured I'd update again.

Tank parameters seem good, balanced... the 4 tetras are apparently happy and quite alive. Eating well for sure.

So, 4 more tetras and is that it? I had 2 cory cats before the die-off and they liked hanging out together...

 

[Byron]

Figured I'd update again.

Tank parameters seem good, balanced... the 4 tetras are apparently happy and quite alive. Eating well for sure.

So, 4 more tetras and is that it? I had 2 cory cats before the die-off and they liked hanging out together...

I might let things run for a few more days to be certain. I think we (meaning the members who have been participating in this thread) probably sorted out the issues, but it won't hurt to be sure. Then the four new cardinals.

You can have cories, a group of at least five or six. Acquire these together if at all possible. When more of these are introduced together, they always settle faster. Which species are you considering? I would avoid the Panda Cory as this one does like water currents, something not so easy in smaller tanks plus the cardinals do not like much current at all.

Byron.

 

[Aquatony]

Hi again! Thought I'd update.

Well, after one week of getting the new 4 cardinals, we got 4 more from the LFS. The tank is holding steady and the new fish are shoaling with the "older" fish.

As to current, the Biowheel definitely causes a current in the tank, as I watch the smaller Tetras get carried away by it sometimes. We also have that volcano in there, with the airstone type thing in it, causing water current. So a panda would probably be OK. I like the Albinos, most, though... Can we have 5 cory cats in a 10 gallon tank?

My kiddo and I have been doing 25% water change 2x a week, I think that'll be the best to keep the water perfect.

 

[Byron]

Hi again! Thought I'd update.

Well, after one week of getting the new 4 cardinals, we got 4 more from the LFS. The tank is holding steady and the new fish are shoaling with the "older" fish.

As to current, the Biowheel definitely causes a current in the tank, as I watch the smaller Tetras get carried away by it sometimes. We also have that volcano in there, with the airstone type thing in it, causing water current. So a panda would probably be OK. I like the Albinos, most, though... Can we have 5 cory cats in a 10 gallon tank?

My kiddo and I have been doing 25% water change 2x a week, I think that'll be the best to keep the water perfect.

That current is too strong for cardinals. Can they escape it? And by escape, I mean get out of it completely; and I can probably anser my question, with no they cannot, because this strong a current in one corner of a 10g is going to move throughout the tank. In a 4 or 5-foot tank, strong current at one end dissipates significantly before it gets even half way down the tank. We must keep in mind that fish in a current like this are working much harder to maintain their position, and it is 24/7 with no respite as the filter is running continually. This is stressful, and will lead to a shorter lifespan guaranteed, and usually other health issues due to the increased stress to the fish.

And from my years of experience, I can assure you that given the opportunity, forest fish like cardinals will avoid currents. I had over a hundred characins in my 5-foot tank, with a canister filter that produced a decent current at the one end, and over the years I noticed how the various species remained out of the current except to feed. This does impact fish health considerably.

The panda cories live in such water, so they are programmed to expect it and require it, to some extent. Many other cory species do not.

Water flow is something many overlook, but it is one of the important factors in building a successful community aquarium. Individual fish needs must be provided for, and there is usually no middle ground.

Byron.

 

[Aquatony]

Byron,

Sorry for the delay in response. After watching the fish for the last few days, and I mean obsessively watch to the point of setting up a Nest cam from my porch in front of the tank, (my wife thinks I've flipped my biscuit) I can say that the Cardinals can definitely get away from the current when they want to and also I noticed that the current is much stronger when the "waterfall" effect from the Biowheel is going -- That happens when the water level in the tank is a bit lower than full. By keeping it fully topped off, that current can be reduced although not eliminated. The cardinals also found a spot near the water heater (opposite the filter) and the pineapple where they can hover around and seem pretty content. They tend to "sleep" over there too at night.

Moving on from the current... into aragonite. I bought some aragonite at my LFS. I used 1/4 cup full (didn't weigh it, next time I will) and rinsed it until the water was very clear as directed. I then placed the 1/4 cup full of aragonite ( cool stuff, tiny little shells!) into the filter reservoir area, thinking that as the water comes out of the tank, through the filter, and into the reservoir, it'll pick up the aragonite and buffer up the water in the tank. I'm wondering in hind sight, if I should have added aragonite to the tank itself? Perhaps 1/4c was not sufficient to make a difference. I monitored the pH 3x daily since Monday and have not noticed the pH ever being above 4.2, although never as low as my previously low 2.91. Should I add more?

I bought a much more expensive pH meter and it produced very similar, acidic readings as the other meter albeit definitely not 2.91.

Last question while I have the expert. On feeding... I have in my fish keeping career, so far only used flake food. I want to branch into the stuff you keep in the refrigerator, like the little cubes, but I wonder if the tetras will be too interested in it? They go crazy over the flakes...

thanks again as always.