Adf Tank Mates - Shrimp?

[AlitaConejita]

Hi All,
 
I have two ADFs in a 5 gallon tank.
 
I would like to add some tank mates - primarily because the frogs are messy eaters and I want something to help clean up the mess.
 
Currently I have 4 small marimo moss balls (each about the size of a marble) and lots of java moss. I have a few silk plants with broad leaves as well. The substrate is river stones and smaller (pebble size) river stones. The temp is kept at about 80 F and the pH is at about 7.6. There is NO algae in the tank.
 
Can I add a few shrimp? If so, what type?
 
I've heard of people keeping amano or ghost shrimp with their ADFs. I've also heard of the frogs eating the shrimp or the shrimp killing the frogs.

 

[SarahR]

I wouldn't mix shrimp with AD frogs, in my experience the shrimp would eventually be eaten.  I have 5 AD frogs in a planted 5 gallon, and am always surprised when I read about these frogs leaving food.  Mine eat everything, and don't rest if there is a speck of uneaten food anywhere in the tank.  They killed and ate every Ramshorn snail in the tank.  They catch and eat guppy and angelfish fry- every last one regardless of how many I put in.  A cube of frozen brine shrimp goes everywhere as it thaws- they find every shrimp. Same with frozen bloodworms, tubifex, etc.  They even bang their noses against the large compressed pelleted food I put in to feed the Mystery snails (which are too large for the frogs to eat or they would) in order to break off bits to eat.  The frogs eat food from the bottom, the middle, and the surface.  They grab it from my fingers if I don't let it go fast enough.  
Newly acquired frogs may be thin and timid, but kept in groups and fed appropriate foods that changes quickly.  As I said, I have a couple of larger Mystery snails with them, and the only other inhabitant is a male Plakat.  I don't normally mix Bettas with other species, but Plakats are able to swim well and tend to mind their own business so I sometimes make exceptions with them.
If your frogs are leaving food around, I would try a different diet.  I only occasionally feed mine pellets or other processed food, they mainly get frozen foods (bloodworms, brine shrimp, krill, etc)and live (white worms, fish fry, baby crayfish, etc.).  That may account for their relentless hunting for food.  If you do need a clean-up critter, larger snails are pretty good scavengers. Except for duckweed, I find the Mystery snails leave healthy plants alone.  Hope this helps- just don't underestimate the little monsters.

 

[Tongue_Flicker]

Any non-fish tankmate that is smaller than the ADF should be avoided.. snails are fine though

 

[AlitaConejita]

I've had the ADFs since august. One is extremely timid but "she" has almost doubled in size since then and is notably bigger than her tank mate (which is why I think it is a she). They eat about 15 pellets a day (.zoomed aquatic frog & tadpole food - what they were fed at the pet store). They get a no-food day about every 8 days and I randomly give them a de defrosted bloodworms but they don't seem to like those much - only eat 1 or 2 each.

It's not that the frogs don't eat the food, it's that they make a mess while attacking the pellets which leaves a food dusting all over and in between the substrate. My gravel vacuum gets some of it, but I'd drain the whole tank if I tried to vacuum all debris up.

Probably the pellets wouldn't disintegrate so easily if the ADFs ate them as soon as they were put in, but it usually takes them a few minutes to start searching for them (even though I always put them in the same little teracota plate), and then it takes them a few more minutes to actually locate the food.
There is no algae in the tank - what type of snail would you recommend?

 

[SarahR]

Nickle size or larger Mystery snails should do the cleanup and be safe. They won't overpopulate unless you allow it, and they have huge appetites. They will take ill advised excursions out of the tank if it isn't covered, so plug any holes. They lay eggs in an obvious cluster (if you have both sexes) above the water line. You can just remove it, or likely if you leave it to hatch the frogs will eat most of the baby snails anyway.
I'm still amazed that you say your frogs don't seem to like bloodworms. I can only surmise that they are so imprinted on the smell and texture of pellets that they don't really recognize more natural foods. I would change that, if only to not have the issue you are experiencing of pellet debris everywhere. Basically, I would stop feeding pellets entirely and only offer bloodworms, brine shrimp, krill, etc. If they eat a couple, they will start eating more when they get truly hungry. I have no idea the size of the zoo med pellets, but 15 a day for two ADF sounds like way too much. They are very good at continuing to eat after they're full while not actually swallowing anything. If they smell food they will keep trying to eat it, but they are actually just mouthing it and spitting it back out. That may be why the remnants are all over. 2 or 3 pellets each is probably plenty and as much as they can actually take in. They hunt by smell, and will find fragments if they are still hungry. Their brains are programmed to eat whenever they smell food because they're opportunistic hunters- nature doesn't serve up pellets on a platter every day, sometimes they find food and sometimes they don't.

 

[AlitaConejita]

the pellets are bigger than grains of salt and smaller than grains of rock salt crumb size? The jar says to give 8-10 pellets per frog.
 
on a few days, they have left 3-4 pellets on the dish, so I don't know about continuing to eat once they are full. Also, the bigger frog doesn't even approach the food dish till the smaller frog has left and then she eats what he left behind.
 
All this to say, I am not sure they are getting more food than they should. Not dismissing the possibility either, though.
 
If I get a snail, will I be replacing food debris with snail poop? I saw another post showing how much poop a snail can generate and it seems like quite a lot!

 

[AlitaConejita]

I re-read the food jar ... It says 5-8 pellets per frog oops! (It also says that frogs will over eat if given the opportunity)

 

[SarahR]

That is something to consider. Snails aren't benign, they add to a tank's bioload just like any other addition. That said, I can't say I've ever noticed piles of snail droppings, so visually at least they are ok.
Pet food labels often overestimate amounts, after all, they want to sell more food. They also would tend to err on the side of recommending to much rather than too little.
The fact that they sometimes leave pellets is probably more because the whole tank smells like pellets. They do eventually run out of energy.
I'm still of the mind that they are getting too much, especially if one is actually waiting for the other to leave. I have never seen even a glimmer of patience or table manners in any of mine. They are oblivious to boundries or personal space when food hits the water.
Seriously, try soaking 7 pellets in water (approximately one frogs portion). See if it looks like an amount that would easily fit inside what has to be a pretty small stomach. They may actually be able to eat that much in a day (not certain they should) but probably not at one time.

 

[AlitaConejita]

I only put 8 pellets today.
 
The pellets have been gone for 30 minutes now and the frogs are still swimming around actively (what I consider their food seeking behavior since they are pretty lazy otherwise). They are digging between stones and once in a while nipping at a foot or hand of the other frog ... is this OK behavior or a sign that they are hungry? (i'm leaning towards hungry )

 

[AlitaConejita]

incidently - I realize this topic isn't much about shrimp anymore - so in the wrong forum - sorry!
 
I read the info sheet on this site for the ghost shrimp and it states that they can be kept with ADFs. I went to the petstore and asked two different people there (the main aquarium guy and a girl that is studying to be a vet ) and they said as long as the shrimp and ADFs are about the same size, it wouldn't be a problem ... otherwise the ADF might eat the shrimp.
 
So I got 2 ghost shrimp (about 5 days ago) one slightly more than half the size of the frogs and the other almost the same size as the bigger frog. So far, they are still alive. I've even seen the bigger shrimp get on the leg of the smaller ADF (for less than 30 sec) while the ADF is "burbling" with no reaction from the frog.

 

[AlitaConejita]

 

 
I'll let you all know if in a month, Casper (ghost shrimp named by me) and Sparkle (little ghost shrimp named by my 5yr old) are still OK.

 

[SarahR]

I only put 8 pellets today.
 
The pellets have been gone for 30 minutes now and the frogs are still swimming around actively (what I consider their food seeking behavior since they are pretty lazy otherwise). They are digging between stones and once in a while nipping at a foot or hand of the other frog ... is this OK behavior or a sign that they are hungry? (i'm leaning towards hungry

)

That is not just OK behavior, that's exactly what you should see. They should definitely still be searching and grabbing after the food is completely gone, if they aren't then they had way too much. Keep feeding them like that and I think you will find they will eat more quickly, and eat most anything. If they were wild, they would not be able to be lazy because they would have to spend a great deal of time in food searching mode. That's why wild animals don't get obese.
Great pics!

 

[jakroebuck6]

when i had my adf cherry shrimp also lived in the tank and the frog maybe ate a few shrimps but i never really noticed, i did notice him munching on a few dead ones over his time in the tank but i think its a good match for tank mates

 

[AlitaConejita]

My last shrimp (had 4 at one time in there) was eaten on Monday. I think the ADFs got them when they molted regardless of what the care sheet says, not keeping those two animals together again.

 

[pingu2013]

Ive seen bamboo shrimps bigger than that