Aaaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

[pammy172]

I can appreciate that all the information a newbie could ever need is stored on this site but at the time I didn't even know this site existed. It was only when we 'googled' a question and it gave an answer from this site that I realised the wealth of information available. It is embarrassing that I could be so stupid. This has been a very painful experience (not to mention slightly expensive). But to respond to your point about the clown loaches and rainbow sharks being too big for this tank, the 3 shops I have been to all stated that they would be perfectly fine in a tank this size, both the staff and the posted signs on the tanks, so I am wondering why and how they can get away with this. With regard to the remaining survivors (some of which show no signs of ill health at all) is there any way I can try to save them? I joined this site primarily to see if there was someone that can give me immediate answers to the immediate problem, now I can start to read through the other pages and learn all I need to ever know and hopefully this will never happen again.

Don't beat yourself up - you're another victim of profits over welfare sadly. You've not been stupid - you've done what most people do - believed those you thought you could trust.

You've done the right thing now by finding this resource and asking the questions which is brave in itself. You're nowhere near the first to make these mistakes. We have all made (and are currently making) mistakes. What matters now is trying to put things right and give you the opportuntity to learn from all the info and support that is available.

Good luck!

 

[Devorax]

Okay, from what I have been told, the 2 goldfish in the main tank (the unfortunate 'guinea pigs', bless them) are in the wrong place even though the water temp is room temp. The testing kits I use are the Tetra 6 in 1 strips, testing for nitrite, nitrate, general hardness, pH, chlorine and KH( I have forgotten what this is). The main tank is testing as fine on all levels except the nitrite and nitrate which started off nil but has steadily been climbing. It is now around 10-25mg/l in just 24 hours. It has an air pump (off at present) and a filter running, plus a Nitra-zorb pouch. The hospital tank is currently without filter (following advice on Finrot&Fungus meds) and presently has no air pump but this wil be sorted out shortly. The water test shows nil Chlorine, pH 6.6 (low I know but haven't tested all day so will correct soon), very low KH, hardness of 4 degrees, and next to nil nitrite and nitrate. Now I am really stumped, cos if it's nitrite/nitrate poisoning these results don't show it.
The main tank has been thoroughly cleaned out, gravel boiled etc. The hospital tank is approx 25 litres, no plants, thin gravel at room temp of 24c.

 

[Davo86]

Okay, from what I have been told, the 2 goldfish in the main tank (the unfortunate 'guinea pigs', bless them) are in the wrong place even though the water temp is room temp.

As said these shouldn't be kept at warmer temps, but should be ok short term,

The testing kits I use are the Tetra 6 in 1 strips, testing for nitrite, nitrate, general hardness, pH, chlorine and KH( I have forgotten what this is). The main tank is testing as fine on all levels except the nitrite and nitrate which started off nil but has steadily been climbing. It is now around 10-25mg/l in just 24 hours.

The 3 critical tests are nitrate, nitrite and ammonia. If you get any Nitrite reading do a 50% water change, even 0.1 Nitrite is considered poisonous to fish, same goes for ammonia which you don't appear to have a test for. The strips and tablet kits are only designed to give you a rough guide, so a liquid test kit should be on your list for future reference.

It has an air pump (off at present) and a filter running, plus a Nitra-zorb pouch.

The hospital tank is currently without filter (following advice on Finrot&Fungus meds) and presently has no air pump but this wil be sorted out shortly. The water test shows nil Chlorine, pH 6.6 (low I know but haven't tested all day so will correct soon), very low KH, hardness of 4 degrees, and next to nil nitrite and nitrate.

how will you correct the ph? what is the ph of your tap water? There is really no need to test for chlorine. like above nitrite needs to be 0, anything over is bad.

Now I am really stumped, cos if it's nitrite/nitrate poisoning these results don't show it.
The main tank has been thoroughly cleaned out, gravel boiled etc. The hospital tank is approx 25 litres, no plants, thin gravel at room temp of 24c.

 

[Devorax]

I have seen products that are supposed to correct the pH levels to the desired (ie 6.8, 7.2) which will now be done tomorrow as shop is shut, if anything is alive in the hospital tank that is. They are just 'stopping', that is they swim normally then slow to a halt, hang, swim, hang, float, kick out to swim, float, dead. They take about 2 hours from first signs of trouble to death. It si really frustrating because I can't seem to do anything.

 

[RedeyesUK]

It's almost certainly going to be ammonia poisoning going on, the reason you've got low nitrite/nitrate levels is because your ammonia bacteria haven't developed enough yet to start converting them. If you tested your water right now, I'd be willing to bet you had a high dose of ammonia.

First things to do:
Water change (50% for now, then again in an hour or so) both tanks
put the airpump into the hospital tank to get some water flow

Next:
Write up a list of all the fish you currently have (just for clarifiaction)
See if the fish shops will take any of your fish back
Buy an ammonia tester

Don't worry about your KH and ph readings for now, they're just confusing the issue. One point, when you do water changes, are you using dechlorinator?

:EDIT:
Don't worry about the ph stuff for now, your fish have got more serious problems at the moment. Water changes are your best bet here, and lots of them, which will sort the ph issue out by itself.

 

[Davo86]

I have seen products that are supposed to correct the pH levels to the desired (ie 6.8, 7.2) which will now be done tomorrow as shop is shut, if anything is alive in the hospital tank that is. They are just 'stopping', that is they swim normally then slow to a halt, hang, swim, hang, float, kick out to swim, float, dead. They take about 2 hours from first signs of trouble to death. It si really frustrating because I can't seem to do anything.

what is your tap water ph?
adding any chemical to change the ph is a really bad idea as the fish will struggle to adapt and in their current state may be enough to kill them off.

The best thing you can purchase would be a liquid test kit, once you have this you can start getting exact figures on your water stats which would allow you to do a waterchange whenever one was needed, I'd guess that if you did a weeks worth of daily 50% waterchanges your tank will be much better for it

 

[Devorax]

Right, the remaining fighting few survivors are as follows:
1 BGK, 5 Guppies, 4 Danios, 11 Neons, 6 Endlers, 1 Pleccy, 5 Roseboras ( I think that's what they are), 2 Apple Snails (if they are still alive), 3 dwarf frogs, 1 Clown Loach.
I have added the air pump/air stone with immediate improvement in fish movements now but with the ill ones it's hard to tell if they are moving on their own power or with current. The water was changed almost completely by my partner (without my knowing) hence the low nitrite/nitrate levels in the hospital tank.
With regards to de-chlorinator, at first yes we did, and with every water change, but have now stopped in main tank.

 

[RedeyesUK]

OK, that's good.

FWIW, the BGK, the clown and the pleco (do you know what type it is?) will need rehoming at some point,and you're still overstocked, but we won't worry about that right now.

You really should use dechlorinator for water changes - apart from killing any beneficial bacteria you may be building up, the chlorine will be affecting the fish. If you can, as you'll probably be doing a lot of water changes in the immediate future, you might want to get hold of some pond dechlorinator - it's pretty much the same as the aquarium stuff, but goes a lot further!

 

[Devorax]

Regarding the Pleccy, I did ask about a version but got told that they grow as long as the tank, so was shown one that will grow to a max size of about 10 cm and only one will be needed. I think I will give the pond de-chlorinator a miss and stick to the normal aquarium stuff, sounds less drastic! lol
I have been looking at different stuff online and they say that for cycling you get ammonia, then nitrite, then nitrate, which then gets removed by water changes. What I don't get, is if this is ammonia poisoning (which some people seem to think), how were the nitrite/nitrate levels so high to begin with? Or was it a case that the ammonia was just as high bit I didn't have an adequate way to test for it? And if anyone dares to offer a probability in % of how this might turn out (Good or bad) I would appreciate it to know what to expect. Thanks to everyone that has offered advice thus far. I t has been greatly appreciated.
As a passing thought, could this be due to internal problems in any way?

 

[Davo86]

Your problems have all stemmed from the fact that the tank wasn't originally cycled in some form, therefore the tank was destined for major problems sooner or later,

However if you do daily water changes (or whenever they are needed) keeping the ammonia and nitrite levels at as close to 0 as possible then your fatalities from here on in should be minimal, Also, for now don't touch the filters.

when the filters do need looking at, wash one third of the media in a bucket of tank water (never use tap water)

 

[RedeyesUK]

I wouldn't like to say where the nitrite/nitrate levels were coming from - have you checked your tap water? You may have a high nitrate level from the tap, although you shouldn't have any nitrites, so that's a bit of a mystery.
It's possible that you've started to develop a bacteria colony which is processing the ammonia, but nowhere near as much as is needed at this point.

As for probabilities, let's say:

80% you will lose some more fish (although hopefully not too many)
100% You've got some hard work ahead of you!
80% If you can get through the next few days, doing daily water changes, things will start to improve
95% If you keep it up for the next few weeks and sort out your stocking levels, all the hard work will be over, and you'll have the tank you wanted.

Sorry it's not the greatest start to the hobby, but that's the way it goes. You'll get there in the end! Personally, I'd go and take my frustrations out on the shops that gave you all this advice.

 

[Devorax]

I have tested the tap water and the strips (now known not to be all the packaging says their cracked up to be...lol) and it came back all as zero. And if I vented my frustrations at the shops...well, let's just say I am unlikely to be around to do the hard work still neccessary....lol. Okay, so it's simple enough it seems. Tomorrow get a liquid tester kit that tests every thing (even down to the competency of the user...lol) and keep changing water like a madman. Oh yeah, and move on at least 2 of the bigger fish as soon as they appear completely well...lol Okay, thankyou to everyone who has offered advice, it has been gratefully recieved. Now for some serious reading through these pages on here.

 

[Davo86]

Good Luck, look for a hagen or api master kit if you can

 

[RedeyesUK]

Sounds like you've got it all in order now.

Good luck with it all, keep us posted!

 

[Devorax]

Okay, progress report. No fish died overnight in hospital tank, but 2 dwarf frogs have moved on in to the giant fishbowl in the sky, although we think this was directly due to the meds, as there was a warning that stated not to treat certain species and they were one of those.....another dumb error. The fish were treated to a bloodworm tablet, which was promptly destroyed in around a minute or two. We are not sure about how to tell if a snail is dead (apart from the obvious waiting for them to move trick), as they seem very inactive. The Pleccy has lost colour, s/he is now a mottled pale grey when in the tropical tank it was very dark, almost black.
Looking around online we are disappointed in the £40 price tags for complete liquid tests, is this really neccessary or can we do well with the seperate tests for ammonia? It's not that we don't want to pay, but we have spent approx £250 so far, between stock, ornaments plants etc, not including tank, and we are feeling very pessimistic right now.
The cold water tank is going mental, even though it was completely re-done 2 days ago (and not even cycled!!!!) as they were given a bigger home, and the 2 goldfish in the main tropical tank are very active and seem to be perfectly fine (it's at room temp, not heated).
No water tests done yet as we are thinkning what to do next, whether to sit tight and 'wait and see' or actively try to cure the current problem at the expense of hope and effort.
Any ideas people?