A Fish Tale

[Myrrh]

This is LONG, and may bore some of you! If you're not interested in fishy soap-operas and stupid humans, please forgive me, and just skip this!​

Assume I Know Nothing​

When I was given a beautiful turquoise betta-splendens for Mother's Day, I was told it needed no real care: just feed it a few times a week, and keep the water clean. Two days after it got here, its 1 QT bowl was frothing at the top. Thinking it to be ill, I got online, and discovered that it wanted to mate. No real care, right?

After doing some research (on all the wrong sites: mostly pet-store chains) I went to the local PetCo and purchased a female that was the same color and, I was assured, would make a perfect mate. Oooo-kay. So, I also got a 2.5 gallon tank because that's the size the guy at PetCo told me I needed. Besides, even though I am on a fixed income (disability), it wasn't that expensive, and by then I had grown rather fond of the fish, even if I hadn't gotten around to finding the right name for him. I also purchased some frozen brine shrimp because that's what they recommended, and "nobody carries fresh foods."

I gave my nameless couple a week to get used to one another; I cleaned the tank, put in some bubble-wrap (which the male loved for his nest, building it to a good half inch thickness), and my blue-boy was a very happy camper; the girl was not very sociable, but it takes all kinds, right?

Meanwhile, neither fish would eat the shrimp; all it did was mess up the tanks . I donated it to a different pet store, where at least they seemed to know something about Bettas and breeding. If I were very vigiliant, the guy said, I could try breeding them in the 2.5 gal tank, but I would have to be ready to move quickly. He also had a beautiful crown-tail Betta whose coloring was perfectly matched to the male's but I didn't purchase her; I already had a female.

That day, I put the female in with the male and watched. He was a sweetheart, coming to the edge of the tank and flirting with me for food, then taking it to the female and swimming around her , then coming to the side of the tank as if to ask for my approval before returning to her. This courtship behaviour of the male went on for hours while I cooked; they seemed to be just fine. And I had tomatoes to water, so I went outside to check the garden. I was gone for 15 minutes.

When I returned, the female's fins were ripped to shreds . She was hiding on the bottom of the tank. I removed her at once, tried to clean the tank and called the fish-man. He told me it was normal behaviour, and to put the female back in-- which I did. And they appeared to be just fine ! I left them together for three days; there was no spawning, but there was an awful lot of shredded finnage and muck in the water, so I took them both out, and did a complete cleaning of the tank; then I put the female into a smaller bowl while I suffered great pangs of guilt over what would become of her.

That was when I came up with a name for the male: Markie, as in Markie de Sade. ​

The next day I noticed that the male, my sweetie, had nasty-looking fins: holes where there had been none before, shreds were missing! And the poor female was swimming around happily in her little bowl, blowing bubbles and showing off her lack of finnage. Maybe they hadn't spawned because he was sick! I took the male to the fish-store man.

It was my luck that another customer happened into the pet store while I was there. He breeds Bettas, and directed me to this site. He and the fish-man from the pet store examined my poor fish, which I was sure was dying of fin-rot or some exotic, incurable disease , but they both assured me that he was only suffering from a fiesty babe-- and trust me-- they really examined this fish, and even tested the water I'd brought him in! So, I purchased the crown-tail and took her home.

She was so sweet and friendly; Markie took to her instantly as she swam in a little bowl beside the larger tank. After a few days, I put the female inside an oil-lamp chimney in the bigger tank, and Markie lost all interest in her. He let his nest fall into nothingness. I was completely confizzled. I was also at my wits' end.

With nothing to lose, I decided to put the original female in with the other two: Markie was just swimming around, and Genie was in her lamp, and all of a sudden, Markie began to build a nest again-- full steam ahead! ~**~ I figured the original female couldn't get any worse than she already was, so I left them all that way for the next three days. Still no spawning. The tank was a mess. (Yes, I cleaned it every day, but wow!). At that time, I realised the male was getting beat up by the puny female again, so I took her out and did a complete cleaning. It is now 48 hours later.

Genie is in her oil-lamp glass in Markie's tank. Markie has a huge bubble-nest, and so does the nameless, finless female who beat him up, and now resides in her own little aquarium!

Could the original female be a male? Should I have named the original pair Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton? Are the males supposed to get hurt in the spawning process? Can I-- should I-- try to breed a splendens with a crown tail? I read online that it's fine, and that the CT is dominant, but I could get a mix. I no longer trust everything I read online!

I am open to suggestions-- No, I am begging for assistance. I've read pretty much everything I could find online, and I haven't seen anything that addresses this specific situation.​

I refuse to be beaten by three fish!​

I'm smarter than they are, right? ​

Myrrh​

 

[MoonstruckMuse]

Excellent names, hahaha. Didn't expect anyone to name their fish that. xD I think it's Marquis, though... not Markie.

You CAN breed the two together - they're the same species. As for whether you should or not, that depends on you, haha. If this succeeds, can you take care of their spawn, or find homes for them all? Do you have the extra time/want to make time to devote to this? I'd personally go for it though, haha. I love breeding, it's fascinating.
From what I know (though, granted, that's not a heck of a lot when it comes to bettas..but biology should determine this question anyhow), because CT is dominant, you could easily have mixed ones if you cross with VT. Tail types are determined by parents' genes, obviously, and the combinations of the two will be the spawn. To make things simple, imagine that we have a tail type, which can be CC (complete CT appearance), Cc (CT appearance, because the capital is dominant), or cc (which would be VT). If we cross a CT and a VT, it can be a Cc x cc, which results in (theoretically) a 50% 50% chance of either tail for each baby... or a CC x cc, which would be 100% crowntails. All babies that you have are going to be Cc or cc, though... so if you breed those, again, it's a gamble for tails, haha.
Does that make sense? I get carried away when I speak of biology, haha. ^^"

The female is probably a female, haha. I've heard of them bubblenesting, though rare. But really, Petco doesn't generally carry plakats (a normal length finned type) unless they messed up, and bettas shred fins of others quite often, it seems... somewhat irregardless of gender. Heh. Sillies. You can check your supposed female when she/he flares too, flaring males have this extra reddish stuff that poofs out from under the gills so that they seem MUCH bigger. Females don't have that red gill stuff.

Maybe Markie was having difficult seeing in through the chimney? Either way, I'd take out the female that keeps beating up on him, throw in the bubble wrap again, and see what happens then. The pair being seperated for a couple days but in sight of each other and then being reunited might cause them to breed too, so you can try that again.

Best of luck!

 

[Myrrh]

Hiya, MoonstruckMuse! ​

​

I love your name, and am pleased to have been a source of amusement for you! I've sure been laughing at myself since that fish came into my life!

​

I can't figure out how to put those nifty boxes around pieces of your text, so please bear with me while I struggle through this poorly formatted response. The artisist in me demands some kind of esthetic appearance. ​

Excellent names, hahaha. Didn't expect anyone to name their fish that. xD ​

To begin with, the names weren't very imaginative when it comes down to it. I mean, what would you call a girl stuck in a lamp, who's waiting for some guy to be ready for her? ​

I think it's Marquis, though... not Markie​

Nope! I named him "Markie," so it's Markie-- mostly because I didn't want to go through a literature lesson every time I told somebody his name (I am off this year: I teach college-level English!), and anyone who knows Bettas will figure it out immediately! Besides, I know a "Mark" (whom we used to call Markie). It was a play on words I couldn't resist! If he ever meets the fish, I'll tell him its name is Marquis, of course. ​

You CAN breed the two together - they're the same species.​

Duh. I'm such an idiot! Isn't that kind of like asking if a cocker-spaniel can have babies with a poodle? Don't go away! I really need you!​

As for whether you should or not, that depends on you, haha. If this succeeds, can you take care of their spawn, or find homes for them all?​

I am hopful that I can live up to the task of taking care of their spawn. I sure intend to give it my best try! The pet-store man is willing to take them from me at a nominal rate-- something between $ .75 and $1. each, depending upon how they look. The plan is to sell him most of the lot while they're very young (he wants to "raise them right" ), and to keep a few choice babies for myself-- perhaps to breed again, if I'm not in shell-shock from the initial experience. I'd also like to initiate a trade with him for a larger aquarium and accessories (heater, filter, etc.) instead of money first time around. If it works, it should be in the best interests of both of us to negotiate that trade!

Do you have the extra time/want to make time to devote to this?​

This year, I'm not teaching at the university. Time is something I've all too much of and, as the little fellow who gave me the fish said, "Old people need to take care of somebody so they don't die!" ​

[the breeding experience is]. . . fascinating. ​

That's my thought, too! I've been trying to research the whole process, but I am inclined to believe it's as much an art as a science. Actually, I have to believe that. I don't "get" science! ​

From what I know . . . biology should determine this question anyhow). . .CT is dominant. . .​

Uh-oh​

you could easily have mixed ones if you cross with VT. ​

What's a VT?​

To make things simple, imagine that we have a tail type, which can be CC (complete CT appearance), Cc (CT appearance, because the capital is dominant), or cc (which would be VT). If we cross a CT and a VT, it can be a Cc x cc, which results in (theoretically) a 50% 50% chance of either tail for each baby... or a CC x cc, which would be 100% crowntails. All babies that you have are going to be Cc or cc, though..​

CC cc VT CCxcc ---uhm... it's math, right? ​

so if you breed those, again, it's a gamble for tails​

My friend, it's all a gamble at this point! LOL! I am soooo out of my element! However, I'm willing to learn, and ready to do whatever it takes, as long as it's legal and moral! Is allowing the male to rip up the female moral?​

Does that make sense? I get carried away when I speak of biology, haha. ^^​

Not at all! LOL! But it's a thing of beauty to read what you so effortlessly laid out for me! I stand in awe of you. ​

Petco doesn't generally carry plakats (a normal length finned type) unless they messed up​

And the idea that they messed up seems odd to you because. . .? ​

. . .bettas shred fins of others quite often, it seems... somewhat irregardless of gender.​

Wow. Again, thank you! So what I've been reading about community tanks for females is best done rather judiciously, because there could just be a bubble-nesting bully of a babe in there who has to be put in solitary?​

You can check your supposed female when she/he flares too, flaring males have this extra reddish stuff that poofs out from under the gills so that they seem MUCH bigger. Females don't have that red gill stuff.​

Actually, s/he hasn't flared up at all in my presence, which makes her seem to be ever so docile: a fact that Markie's tail would belie, the little sneak!​

Maybe Markie was having difficult seeing in through the chimney?​

Don't even tell me these guys can have sight problems, too! Is there a Betta-Opthamologist? That aside, you know I cleaned the chimney before putting it into my tank! LOL! Like I wanted to clean the whole tank again, or watch my Markie die of some bizarre disease that I carried into his home on a glass chimney!​

Either way, I'd take out the female that keeps beating up on him. . .​

Done!​

throw in the bubble wrap again, and see what happens then.​

Actually, as I have no intention of cleaning the tank after/if they spawn, until the fry can be moved out of there (which is when?) I cleaned everything with Clorox this morning! I used a much weaker solution than recommended-- 1 capful of Clorox to 2.5 gallons of water-- (but nobody was sick, and it's clean now! ); I rinsed it forever and it's in the sun now, so any residual bleach evaporates. I figure a solid 24 hours in the sun should do the job. Does that sound right?​

The pair being seperated for a couple days but in sight of each other and then being reunited might cause them to breed too, so you can try that again.​

Oh, I separated them alright! This tank-cleaning ritual is getting very old! He's in his little bowl, blowing bubbles as I write. Genie is in her little bowl, flirting with him. He stops every so often to make eyes at her. I think Cupid's around here somewhere; at least, I remain hopeful!​

Best of luck! ​

I'm going to need it! ​

Best,
Myrrh​

 

[mommyof2bettas]

First of all, welcome to betta keeping! Bettas are definatley great pets, but you also need to make sure you do everything right when trying to breed, so nothing bad happens...

To figure out if your little girl isn't actually a girl, look in between her ventrals (those little dangling thingies under her head). If there is a white spot, she is a female.
Females can build bubblenests, but not all do... so your might actually be a boy and that would be why Marky's fins are all shredded.

There is one thing you need to do before you place a male and female together to breed and that is condition them. This means you'll need to feed them live or frozen foods for 2 weeks about 2 times a day before spawning them.
The female's belly should be large and full of eggs, and they should both be active- the male blowing bubblenests.

You also need live foods to feed the fry. Most fry would rather starve than eat non-live food. You can feed the BBS (baby brine shrimp), VE's (vinegar eels), or MW's (microworms). I prefer microworms, because Imo they should be easier to culture.

Next, you'll need a growout tank for the fry- about 15-20 gallons (there could be hundreds of fry).

Also, mixing Vt and Ct (veiltails and crowntails) gets you Ct's, Vt's and combs, which is a mix.

If you really want to breed, you are better off buying quality bettas, not pet shop ones, many people don't recommend breeding veiltails in the first place. It is fine, but not often recommended.

Here are a few links that may help... and a quote from wuv (from the first link):

Before we start let's think about a few things. Raising betta fry is very time consuming and lot's of work. You should have a plan for the fry, where will they live in a few months?

Also, don't breed veiltail bettas. Lovely though they may be, there are millions and millions of homeless veiltails out there, so don't contribute to the "betta in cup" market. Get a nice, quality pair of bettas to breed with. You should have no trouble getting rid of quality betta fry

Breeding and Rearing Betta Fry

Decapsulating Brine Shrimp Eggs

Culturing Live Foods

Indian Almond Leaves

Hope this helps!

Btw, to get those quote boxes just press "quote" and then "reply" under the person's post to quote the whole thing, or just copy and paste the parts of the post, wrapping them in quote tags (the little bubble icon at the top when you're writing a post)... or just write (quote)(/quote), replacing the () with []

 

[MoonstruckMuse]

Thanks for all the compliments, and I'm glad I could help! Mommyof2bettas trounces mine by a good deal though, haha.

I wouldn't shy away from breeding petstore bettas - your CT female sounds stunning, and especially as your first breeding experience, I don't think it'd be too bad. And besides, sometimes pet store bettas hold great surprises and have babies with amazing looks.

And I agree wholeheartedly with needing to care for something, haha. I just graduated high school, and already I'm so boredddd (and have too many random vacations/parties to be able to hold even a part time job), so I'm instead volunteering at the local animal shelter like a fiend. It's fun. =)

If you have some live plants (Java Moss is amazing - incredibly easy, really thready so that fry can hide in it and feel safe), it'll provide a little bit of infusoria that the fry can eat as well. Not enough to grow up on, but it helps tide them over if you're having a bit of trouble with the cultures or forget one morning or something.

VT is veiltail, and generally that's what would be sold in Petco. But haha, their messups are common, and I loooove taking advantages of them.

Haha, that's a punnet square. So depending on your female, that's what the fry will be. I'm not sure if that clears anything I said up, but its not really that important anyhow. Nature likes to play games on us anyhow.

My female never flares either, and seems the cutest thing.... until she decided it was darn fun to go around destroying ghost shrimp, haha. I didn't realize it was her that was killing them until I caught her attacking/eating the 2nd to last one out of the original 10. Hahaha. Tricky, manipulative girls. xD

All the more power to you for caring and looking out for your bettas so well!

 

[Myrrh]

WOW!​

both!​

Mommyof2bettas and MoonstruckMuse (I love that name lol!) you're both wonderful for helping me like this, and putting your responses in language I can understand. ​

First: Yes, Mommyof2bettas, you're so right! I will definitely do the best I can to prepare and to care for these fishies. Caring for any living thing is a huge responsibility! It's not unlike having your first child. You read what you think is important, and listen to the doctor, but in the end it's the experience of being a parent that really makes all the difference. If you're lucky, you get great advice (like yours, here!). If you're not so lucky, you get shifty advice, and wind up stumbling through the process and learning through your trials. I feel very lucky that you folks are here, and so helpful. The links you provided are invaluable. I followed and read every single one! I also ordered those almond-leaf drops I saw in another post here, as well as food for fry and a conditioner. My poor, stressed male is now mending; the PetCo guy just gave me bad advice; I never should have put a female in so soon, and then another female. What they neglected to take into consideration, I think, is that Bettas in their natural habitats are already conditioned!

This time around, after the two are conditioned, I will only actually be "raising" a few babies. The guy at the LFS ( not PetCo! ) wants to take the fry as soon as they can swim on their own, and I take Markie (Marquis! ) out. I'll raise few enough for the experience, but not so many as to stress us all out. He has a "leveling-bed" in his van that will keep the tank level while he transports it, and I live less than a mile from his shop in one direction, and less than a mile from where he lives in the other, so I'm midway between his home and his work-- in case I need help. Also: it's summer, and I keep the bettas at room temp (no a/c) which is how he will transport them; it's a slow-speed area, too. I think that makes me very lucky for a first-time breeder. I also want to thank you for your general technical help! I can be such an idiot at times!

​

MoonstruckMuse (you really are a muse!) ​

First of all, let me say that I am not surprised to hear that you're volunteering at the animal shelter. It's tough work and very rewarding. It's necessary and important. Huge Cheers for you! What will you be doing in the fall? Studying sciences at university, I hope!

Second of All:​

Thanks for all the compliments, and I'm glad I could help! Mommyof2bettas trounces mine by a good deal though

Just to clear things up: Both posts contained relevant and very different information-- all of which I need! Nobody trounced anybody on the "help" front, except maybe that the two of you trounced me with your knowledge! Also: I don't give compliments; I just say what I believe! If you're complimented by it, then I am pleased, and it's a bonus for both of us. As a teacher, I fully appreciate the time and care you took to craft those charts for me in an effort to help me understand the genetics of it all. I'm an experiential learner, LOL! The only thing I know about genetics is that when I had my first child, and my hubby and I each had a father with blue eyes (but we don't have blue eyes ourselves!) his father (a doctor) said: "Blue eyes are dominant, but in any case, you have a 1 in 4 chance of having a blue-eyed baby every single time you have a baby." That was complex enough for me! For the record: I had one blue-eyed baby (the first one!), two brown-eyed babies, and one green eyed baby-- talk about recessives! My eyes are hazel: green/amber/brown; my hubby's eyes were brown. I understood it because it was tangible! I could see the results. But it all boils down to what you said:

Nature likes to play games on us anyhow.

Which I suppose is where the recessives come into play, and all the unknown factors when we buy PetCo Bettas!​

I meant to ask about live plants! I raise a small organic garden here, and also have a large bed of all kinds of herbs: parsley, cliantro, thyme, sage, mint, oregano, chives, borage, dill, basil, and I think that's all! I've rooted a few herbs for a friend so she could also have an herb garden, and I have been reading that people give their Bettas lettuce-- which I am not growing- lol! I do have tomatoes, cucumbers, bell peppers, eggplants, and watermelons! Is it a good idea to take an herb that I've rooted in water, and put that into the tank? If so, which herb? Sometimes, I take my Bettas into the garden and let them hang out in a shady spot while I work. They seem to love it, and they get to eat insects: gnats, mosquitos, and teensy things that fly around here. It seems to be good for all of us!

In another post in this forum, a girls who's fixing up her tank has put live house-plant leaves into the tank. I read there that as long as the plants don't have any soil on them, it's okay. Herbs can be strong, so I'm not sure which ones would be good for the tanks, though parsley is pretty mild. Anything you can let me know would be great!

You will never know how deeply I appreciate your encouragement and input. It's so very important!​

I am so sorry about your ghost shrimp! I guess she was telling you she wanted more live food! But that's nature forya! I look forward to hearing from both of you again, and anyone else who has anything to add for this earnest but under-educated (where Bettas are concerned, anyway!) newbie here!​

Myrrh

​

"Some people can't feel like winners unless somebody else loses."​

 

[MoonstruckMuse]

Aww, thanks for all the compliments, yet again! And yay for both of us benefitting, that's always wonderful.

Haha, those links really are interesting, though. I ended up going through them myself and reading them all - fish are amazing creatures. It's crazy to think that so much goes into just one spawn, yet nature goes and does this all the time, with no help from anyone else.

And thank you again for the shelter comment! So many of my peers just look at me funny and wonder why I'd want to go work with "mangy, smelly beasts" through the summer, heh. It's really an experience though, one that I'm truly thankful to be getting. I've wanted to be an equine veterinarian ever since I was 6, I believe, and I'll be double majoring in biology and animal behavior this fall, I believe. I'm so excited, hahaha.

Mmm, by live plants, I had originally meant aquatic live plants. However, herbs are an interesting idea - if they can boost human health, they probably do some good for fish as well. I'm not so sure that they'll grow if you root them into the tank, haha... a single leaf itself would probably do enough, especially since they're in small tanks. I have no idea which ones would be good for fish and which ones may be toxic instead though, I'd look around a bit more before deciding to throw some herbs in there. And having plants in general in tanks encourages infusoria, so that's good for fry.
As for food - I know some people put soak their flake foods with minced/mashed garlic to stimulate appetite and increase immune system function. Cucumber is often fed to other herbivorous fish - not sure if bettas will eat it, but they may have a nibble out of curiosity. Herbs like cilantro and parsley are relatively high in calcium, rosemary is great for its antiseptic qualities which could potentially help torn fins. However, bettas are mostly carniverous, and because of that and the herb's strong scent, I'm not sure how willing they would be to eat them, haha. Anything's worth a try though!