A Couple Of (Probably Silly) Questions.

[wonderer]

Hi everyone. Firstly just wanted to say in the short time I have been a member here I have received some great advice and much more so as a lurker for quite a while so thanks to all the brains on the site that help us newbies. So now I have sucked up I will ask for more advice lol.

I have a tank that is two weeks into cycling and posted a thread in that forum regarding whether or not I was on the right track. I have a few questions regarding though I can't seem to find the answer to. My ammonium levels are dropping between 24-48 hours after dosing. Nitrates are around 40-50 every time I test ( pretty much every day). My problem being I have only ever seen nitrite levels around 0-0.25. I used sludge and gravel from an established tank a week ago and was just unsure where in the process I am. So my questions are
1: is there anything else that can rid the tank of ammonia other than the good bacteria? As I say I have not seen any nitrite spike so I'm not sure if I even have much bacteria to get rid of ammonia yet? I have read that I may not see a spike due to using the sludge and gravel but it has only been a week since I put that in and did not know how long this would take?
2: As I say I have good levels of nitrates. Can nitrates only be present with the nitrite eating bacteria? In other words does having nitrate levels mean I have a healthy bacteria colony?

Its hard because the tank has only been running two weeks now. From the start it has been over filtered with two new canister filters with temperatures around 80 degrees and plenty of water movement. The sludge and gravel was added a week ago. The ammonia is back to zero usually withing the 24 hours after dosing ammonia at 3ppm. This tells me I'm nearly good but can this be after only 2 weeks from scratch and 1 week with some used stuff put in?

I want to completely stock a cichlid tank but am terrified I will add them only to realise I have made a terrible mistake.

 

[Zante]

1. At two weeks it's a bit early for the nitrite spike. If you don't see nitrite rising it means you still don't have enough bacteria to process the ammonia into nitrite.
 
2. Not yet. You need nitrite first to have nitrate. It's more likely you have nitrate in your tap water. Test that.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Seeding a tank changes the process of cycling, but in a good way. Iyt should make it go faster. The more bacteria you can add at the start, the faster things go.
 
So think abiout what happens when you do seed a tank.  For one it means you have more bacteria than normal. If you do my favorite math exercise which a call the doubling game, iy quickly becomes clear why. Lets assume one needs 250 individual bacterium for a tank to be cycled for that part of things. Lets assume you do 2 tanks side by side. One has no seeding so it has but one bacterium but the tank you seeded has 4. Run the numbers
  1x2 = 2       4x2=  8
  2x2 = 4       8x2= 16
  4x2 = 8     16x2= 32
  8x2 =16    32x2= 64
 16x2=32    64x2=128
 32x2=64  128x2=256 and cycled
 64x2=128
128x2=256 and cycled
 
The mere 3 extra at the start shortened things byt 25%. Adding more would shorten it even more. But this only illustrates what but now the how or why.
 
There are two reasons why seeding greatly speeds thing, but also changes things. Because you are starting with ammonia bacs, it will clearly take less time to build up enough bacteria to handle ammonia. But it is the fact that one also has nitrite bacs from the start that really puts the pedal to the metal. The nitrite bacs reproduce more slowly than the ammonia bacs and normally they start to reproduce later on in the cycle. Even as the ammonia drops the nitrite normally rises quite high before the numbers of nitrite bacs can catch up. By seeding, which puts some number of nitrite bacs in the tank, you are instantly jumping that part of the cycle from the realm of the first column in the doubling illustration to the second column or or to an even faster one.
 
And this shows up in the nitrite tests. Because the nitrite bacs had a head start, as soon as nitrite hits they are ready to convert some and then to use the rest to fuel reproduction process quickly. The result of this is that nitrite levels will never climb as high as they do without seeding.
 
Neither your ammonia nor your nitrite levels will take as long to drop and the nitrite levels wont build to the max either. The difference in ammonia is that you start by dumping in 3 ppm to start, so it is at the top right away and then its down from there, the seeding means the time down to hit 0 is less than it is without any seeding.. As the Suggestions and Trouble Shooting in the cycling article says:

 
If you can add gravel or filter media from a healthy cycled tank, it will accelerate the process. The more you can add, the more it will help. If you can do this, reduce the time between testing from every 3 days to every 2 days. Test on days 3, 5, 7, 9 etc. Then reduce the every 2 day testing to every day.

 

[wonderer]

Thank you for your replies, I apreciate it. Can I just ask though, is it only the bacteria that reduces ammonia? If so then it must mean I have enough good bac to reduce the ammonia in 24 hours or is there another explanation for the ammonia drop each day? As you mentioned Two Tank I may not see that big nitrite spike that I would look for if I cycled without seeding so I'm not sure exactly what I should be looking for now? Am I looking for any kind of increase in nitrite or is there every chance I won't see any elevation?

Thank you for the suggestion to test my t ap water for nitrate Zante, I have just done so and the results are showing as pretty much on zero whereas the tank water is around 40-50 so where in Zeus's beard is the nitrate coming from? My brain wants to tell me it's because I'm far along in the process but that's just because I want my fishes!! What would explain the high nitrates if its not my tap water? Must it be the bacteria?

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Maybe you added some nitrate with the gravel and sludge at the start?

 

[Blondielovesfish]

Is the tank planted? Plants are another thing that can absorb ammonia.

If you have no nitrate in your water then I would think that you must have the nitrite bacs to eat the ammonia and produce the nitrate.
If that is the case, then once you have the ammonia and nitrite down to 0ppm after adding 3ppm you're ready for fish

 

[wonderer]

Is the tank planted? Plants are another thing that can absorb ammonia.
If you have no nitrate in your water then I would think that you must have the nitrite bacs to eat the ammonia and produce the nitrate.
If that is the case, then once you have the ammonia and nitrite down to 0ppm after adding 3ppm you're ready for fish

No this is the thing, I only have plastic plants so I can only assume it is the nitrite bac eating the ammonia unless there is something ELSE that can make it disappear? This is why I don't know where to go next because all the signs say I'm almost there with zero ammonia after 24 hours, little nitrites and 40-50 nitrates. But because I have only had the tank running a couple of weeks with used media for a week it just seems too quick and I'm not sure how I can be sure. I could wait forever for a change that may never come but don't want to fully stock the tank and then have a massive problem. Rock and a hard place.

 

[Blondielovesfish]

You most likely are almost done then
 
When you do go ahead with stocking, make sure to keep an eye on the readings and be prepared to do lots of water changes if anything was to spike.

 

[wonderer]

You most likely are almost done then

 
When you do go ahead with stocking, make sure to keep an eye on the readings and be prepared to do lots of water changes if anything was to spike.

Oh don't worry I will put up a chair and camp next to the tank for a week!!
 
So there is every chance I may nearly be there? Can it fully cycle in only two weeks? Im just so worried I will fully stock and then have a massive nitrite spike or something in a week and wake to floating fishes

 

[Blondielovesfish]

It is possible to cycle in two weeks or less.
How much mature filter media did you actually use?
 
If you're worried, keep dosing, but, you're most likely done
 
Whats your pH?

 

[draxis]

1: is there anything else that can rid the tank of ammonia other than the good bacteria? As I say I have not seen any nitrite spike so I'm not sure if I even have much bacteria to get rid of ammonia yet? I have read that I may not see a spike due to using the sludge and gravel but it has only been a week since I put that in and did not know how long this would take?
 
Ammonia will go away with time, patience really, and will be consumed by nitrites which then get consumed by nitrates.  What I would recommend if you are looking to 'speed it up' is to go to a LFS (call around first) and get a used filter; trade yours in for theirs.  This filter you MUST keep wet on the way home but will come with a nice colony of bacteria that will start having a party in your aquarium.  The good thing about having a filter with bacteria is that it includes the nitrates to eat the nitrites when they spike (fish in tank YAY).  Having the nitrates and other bacterias all you need is a little nitrites and you are rocking.  Not sure if any LFS have these you can trade or swap but mine does.  I just tell them what filter I have and they tell me if they can trade.
 
 

2: As I say I have good levels of nitrates. Can nitrates only be present with the nitrite eating bacteria? In other words does having nitrate levels mean I have a healthy bacteria colony?
 
Nitrates will increase prior to waterchange (hence why you waterchange).  Lets say they start say 0.5 and increase to 40  You should never let them climb over 40ppm and this is where you would waterchange.  Personally, mine only reach about 20 before a bi-weekly water change.  Nitrates are the nitrite eating bacteria and build up the more nitrites they eat.  Having nitrate levels means you have the bacteria that will eat nitrites which derives from the initial ammonia.  Once you see nitrates you are heading in the right direction.  You want the nitrites to go to 0ppm and have 20nitrates (then you know the tank is cycled).