20gallon Journal - Updated Daily - Indir

[indir-emir]

Hey everyone I have recently bought a tank and started to get into the fish keeping hobby.

My tank has approximately 20Gallons (about 80 litres) of water in it. The size is 62cm L x 51cm H x 32cm D. I have a picture of the tank set up if that will help with any of my questions.

I bought this tank from ebay from a hobbyist who said he was in it for a fairly long time. He had this tank set up for about a year. I decided i wanted to do a fishless cycle so i cleaned out the tank (gravel, plants etc included) but left the Fluval 104 Canister uncleaned so i could keep the bacteria from the tank to speed up the nitrogen cycle.

I have had this tank running for about 2 or 3 weeks now with no fish and only just bought the API Liquid Fresh Water Test Kit (I hear everyone uses this one hehe). Anyway, i tested the water of the tank today and these are the results:
Ammonia = 1-2ppm
Nitrite = 5ppm
Nitrate = 10-15
PH = 7.8

My questions are:
1) Once my ammonia and nitrate reduce to 0 is my tank cycled?
2) Is my PH level to high for fish such as neon tetras(wanting to get a few colourful fish to start with)
3) I have recently noticed an oily like substance on the surface of the tank water (which moves if i put something in there like the test tubes to get some water), is this a bad thing or normal(as far as i can see from the internet its normal to get this sort of thing in a nitrogen cycle?). I have taken a picture to help identify the substance (you can see the parts were it swirls around the middle region). Here is the picture:

4) How much is to much nitrate?
5) I havn't done any water changes as of yet, as i havnt gotten the test kit till after work today. Am i ment to do any changes, or wait till after the cycle is finished (to get rid of nitrates)?

Thank you in advance for all your help.
Regards,
Indir

EDIT: If it makes any difference I have an undergravel filter as well as the Fluval canister... Im gonna buy an air pump soon though, the undergravel filter is to noisy and i have to turn it of to sleep Does this cause much of a problem(turning the undergravel off at night)?

P.S Sorry for such a big post, but want to get fishies swimming in my tank. My bedroom isnt to bright lol

 

[rabbut]

I'll start answering your questions with more questions What ammonia source are you using for your fishless cycle?

Now for some answers...

1) Depands on the ammonia source...

2) Most Neons will be fine in that higher pH, so long as carefully aclimated They will need a tank that's had fish in for 6 months though, as they are delicate fish, and just cycled tanks don't seem to be good enough for these more demanding fish

3) The oily substance is usualy just fats and certain organic compounds from fish food, and is removed via waterchanges. It can stop oxygen getting into the water, so I'd position the filter outlet to break through that surface covering

4) Nitrate isn't too toxic in itself, but it is used as an indicator for a build-up of other products that you don't want. Aim for it to be no more than 20ppm higher than tap water levels once fish are in. Nitrate is acidic and can pull the pH down during a cycle. If this happens to you, it's waterchange time, otherwise, let it be

5) Nitrates are removed at the end of the cycle in a large waterchange. Whether you need more waterchanges before this point depends on your ammonia source and the pH

to tff
Rabbut

 

[waterdrop]

Hi there and welcome to TFF!

Rabbut covered all the questions there very nicely so I'll just let most of them stand.

The way you know your tank is cycled in our Add&Wait fishless cycling procedure here on TFF is when you're able to add ammonia to a measured 5ppm level and then find that the filter has processed this ammonia down to 0ppm and the nitrite(NO2) that resulted from it down to 0ppm in 12 hours or less. Normally its been some weeks when you finally see this goal reached the first time and you finish out the week (we call this the "qualifying week") confirming that it can keep dropping ammonia and nitrite to zero in 12 hours each day and then you do "the big water change" and get your initial fish.

The basic process we follow is written up in a pinned article by rdd1952 at the top of this section of the forum.

The filter in which you preserved the media looks like it might be in the later part of fishless cycling (the "nitrite spike") phase, but rabbut's question is critical: Have you been adding ammonia during these 2 weeks without fish?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[indir-emir]

Thanks for the help.

No, i didnt add ammonia to the tank which is why im suprised its even gotten this far. I was gonna get some pure ammonia in a bottle but then tested the water and it had some in there so decided against it. What other ways are there of adding ammonia to the tank? Without using the ammonia in a bottle stuff..? The only thing that had any bacteria in it would be the 'Stress Zyme' which says it has 100 million bacteria per teaspoon..

By the way, rabbut i havn't had food in the tank more than that one time when i put a small amount when i first got the tank... And i only did that because i read somewhere it would add some bacteria.

Regards,
Indir

 

[rabbut]

The first feeding of food will be where the first lot of bacteria are comming from, as it rots to give an ammonia source. You can keep adding enough food to feed the tank when full of fish and doing say 50% weekly waterchanges during the cycle with thurogh gravel vacs to get the cycle established, or you can use liquid ammonia. The latter is preferable if possible, as food often "overcooks" the ammonia levels. If they get up above 6ppm at any point, you need to waterchange to check the levels a bit. Believe it or not, the ammonia eating bacteria can be ammonia poisoned as well as the fish

Stress Zyme is snake oil. Its only useful to a retailer for booting their profit margins. It does nothing to help you, so I'd surgest no buying more after you have finished the bottle. It won't be doing any harm though...

In summary, keep feeding the tank as though it is full of fish or get some liquid ammonia to finish the cycle. The pinned topic at the top of the page explains the process for liquid ammonia, but with food, you are basically cycled when ammonia and nitrite test zero

HTH
Rabbut

 

[indir-emir]

Ok cool thanks heaps Rabbut. So basicaly im feeding the tank as i would if i had the tank stocked up until they are 0?
Is there a way of me knowing when its cycled, like the pinned topic says (p.s i read it several times prior to posting lol) when it takes 12 hours or less to bring amonia and nitrate to 0? Or is it just soon as they both hit 0?

Just for my own rememberence, 50% changes weekly during the cycle and feeding as i would if i had a tank(wouldnt this keep adding ammonia to the tank constantly tho?

EDIT: Oh forgot earlier. So 'Stress Zyme' is useless and isnt worth adding to the tank? Also i use 'Prodac AquaSana' for conditioning my tap water, is this stuff any good and could it be the cause of the wierd substance on the surface of my water? Oh and also it says it contains aloe vera antistress in the conditioner too, is this good or bad(Read somewere aloe vera is bad)?

Regards,
Indir

 

[OldMan47]

The aloe vera could be part of the reason that you have a film on the water. Some fish food contains enough fish oil that it will also contribute to that film on the water. As long as the filter breaks up the oily film it will not cause serious problems. I have never heard of your conditioner but I think that just means you are located somewhere that I am not. I seriously doubt there are many products that are sold everywhere. If it is designed to remove chlorine and chloramine it should be fine.
With no specific dosing time for ammonia, there is no easy way to measure the drop. Instead you can look at the levels of ammonia in your water and when they have dropped to zero while you still are feeding fish food, the ammonia processing bacteria are established. Once the nitrites drop to zero and the nitrates are increasing constantly you will have established the nitrite processing bacteria. At that point you do a very large water change and clean out all the rotting fish food and you should be able to start stocking with fish.

 

[waterdrop]

I agree with rabbut and OM47, fishless cycling with fish food or anything other than pure ammonia is just so uncontrolled it usually leads to a very frustrating experience. Using pure household ammonia in controlled amounts is the best way to go.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[indir-emir]

Hmm :\ household ammonia? What kinda stuff is that? Yeah im in Australia, most people on forum are not from here lol. Was just hoping someone had some kind of experience with it lol. Only reason i didnt get the pure ammonia from the stores was cause i was broke when i bought my tank lol and then thought about it and figured it should be ok, using the mature media and some food to get some rotting things lol

I have only fed the tank fish food a few times lol. I dont think its the fish food though, their the flake foods from my brothers guppies lol and his tank is running well for the past 6 months

The wierd thing on the water surface came about for no aparent reason lol. I had left it for about a week without touching anything at all and then it started to appear. Its now reduced in the amount of it.

Cant wait for this damn cycle to finish, i want some fishies

P.S Edited first post with some other things from the tank set up, just incase it made a difference...
Regards,
Indir

 

[waterdrop]

I -have- read a few comments from those in Aus. that pure household ammonia can be hard to find and buy. But, on the other hand, we do have a fair number of users from there and maybe one of them will spot this and be of help.

In the USA, I can walk right into my local grocery store, walk to the broom and mop section and find a quart or half-gallon bottle of "plain ammonia" which is meant as a cheap generic floor/general cleaner people would buy to save money as compared to more expensive cleaning products that have ammonia, soap, dye, fragrance etc. This "plain ammonia" is really a form of "aqueous ammonia" where ammonia (normally a gas if pure) is dissolved in the water at about 9.5% (which gets it just below 10% which is often a legislated limit.) In the UK its even better, as the government requires that the percentage be labeled on the bottled, allowing UK folks to confidently use calculations for the initial dosing amount tests.

To use this "plain ammonia" for fishless cycling, its important that it be clear, without any soaps, dyes or fragrances added, which happens frequently because the bottlers assume people only want it for cleaning purposes. One way to rule out soaps is to shake it and see if it foams. Shaking should only make some bubbles as if it were water.

Even in Aus., being a detective and going out and finding the correct ammonia I believe is worth the trouble and will greatly ease the process for you if you're successful. Of course, if it turns out to be impossible, the members will still help with a less-desirable alternative like fishfood cycling or fish-in cycling.

I get some mild film showing at the surface of my tank too that I think is simply due to the oils in the Tetra TetraMin tropical flakes I use for fish food. I don't think its of significance at all, especially as compared to getting a filter properly cycled and understanding about that, which is core to learning the hobby, I feel.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[indir-emir]

Hmm was hoping my cycle was almost done I tested my water again, results are as follows:
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 5
Nitrate = 10-15

Is it a good sign that ammonia is at 0? Hopefully nitrites drop soon... and stay at 0 for some fishies lol

Guess im gonna have to buy some ammonia for the tank, thanks for the help waterdrop ... How much ammonia reading is to bad for a fish if there was a fish in my tank?

 

[waterdrop]

Well you might indeed be pretty far along (in the "nitrite spike" or "second" phase, we'd say) but usually we have a lot more data from a cycler than just a couple of test sessions like you've posted. Some threads have beginners with dozens of posts showing the trend of their readings and other details -- doesn't mean you aren't far along, just that's its harder for us to be as sure.

Although there of course is -always- a residual amount of ammonia and nitrite flowing from the fish/plants of a normal tank to the filter where it is processed, this amount should always be so small as to be undetectable by our liquid-reagent based test kits. No amount of kit-detected ammonia or nitrite is good for fish.

Ammonia causes permanent gill damage and any time it is happening it is shortening the life of the fish, weakening it for disease or potentially killing it. Nitrite(NO2) in even tiny amounts causes suffocation. What really happens with nitrite is that it attaches to fish hemoglobin at the points where O2 would attach and it then decomposes the proteins, literally making it look like a brown mess under the microscope. This quickly removes too much working hemoglobin from the fish blood, not allowing O2 to circulate and the first symptom then is nerve damage, shortly leading to death.

Once new fishkeepers fully understand this, they want really good, stable and working biofiltration to be fully in place prior to fish getting near their water. Its just the best way to go about things.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[indir-emir]

I see, thank you for such an in-depth post, over and over again

I realise what you are saying about only having a few readings. But unfortunately got my tank at a bad time and all shops where closed or out of stock and couldnt get my hands on a test kit. I am using the API master test kit now which is good

Are there any ways of testing (without pure ammonia in a bottle) if my fish is cycled, by the 12 hour or less from 5 to 0 ppm rule?

P.S Just incase, i am sorry for all the questions (which are more than likely very annoying for most people to answer) and i appreciate EVERY bit of advice and help

Kindest regards,
Indir

 

[waterdrop]

Great that you have the right kit now, that is a step in the right direction.

Unfortunately, no, the whole bit about 12 hours and 5ppm dropping to 0ppm all comes from the dosing control you get with ammonia dosing.

If you cycle via fish food then its more like fish-in sort of measuring where you just keep letting small amounts of organic materia (fish food or shrimp/prawns) rot in the tank, hoping the ammonia level doesn't get up around 8ppm or above (that would encourage the wrong species of bacteria) and then just keep roughly going along with this until it becomes obvious that ammonia and nitrite just seem to be staying at zero all the time, indicating that its getting fully processed as soon as its produced by the rotting food.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[indir-emir]

Okay cool thanks. I might have to do a fish in cycle as i had the tank running for about 2 maybe 3 weeks without any tests or any sort of things going onto it. Once of twice i put fish food in, due to reading it somewere. Might have to try the ammonia add and wait method i guess. Or just stick it out with fish food once a day and hope for ammonia and nitrate of 0....

Which would you reccomend me to do?

Indir