2 Tanks are crashing

[CatholicSin]

Here is the situation.

2 tanks both concurrently suffering same problems.

The first tank is a 55gal. with cardinals, callistas, rummy noses and a friendly pleico. This tank has been established and running good for 14 months, no ammonia, no nitrite's and extremely low nitrates (could never get it down all the way, considering plants for it). The second tank is a 30 gal. with whiteclouds, no ammonia, no nitrites and no nitrates.

Everything had been going good. We have been wanting some fish that like the top part of our 55gal for the last 14 months. Since the cardinals/callistas/rummies like the middle and bottom we have waited to make sure the tank has no problems (each time we add fish we usually do a school of 6-10 at a time, never ever had a problem and to this date never lost a fish except for hatchets when we didn't realize they were jumpers). At the same time the whiteclouds had cycled our 30 gal tank fully and we wanted some ottos so we could get some algea feeders.

So, while we were out one day at petsmart buying catfood for our cat we noticed they had some ottos and some guppies (for our 55gal since they like the top part). We decided to buy a school of ottos and a school of guppies (6 ottos, 10 guppies). We placed the ottos in the 30 gal and the guppies in the 55.

Within three days 5 of the 6 ottos have died and a whitecloud has died. In the other tank 8 of the 10 guppies are dead and we have lost two cardinals and a rummy (all three we have had the entire 14 months with the 55 gal). Some of the other cardinals are currently also acting sick and one of the white clouds.

Some of the fish that have died (or are sick)have had almost a section of its scalp missing skin and now one of the cardinal has what looks like a burn on its side (never had problems with our heater before). Some of the fish just looked sick and died. There is absolutely no sign of Ich, the water in both tanks is still in great condition (no ammonia, no nitrates, no nitrites).

I realize first off our mistake was buying anything from Petsmart, it was a whim that shouldnt have ever been operated on. But what could be causing this, I don't think its Ich at all, and both tanks were in excellent shape before this. We have put that many fish in before with no problems whatsover so I dont think we overpopulated anything (especially since the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are all 0)

Any ideas on what might be causing this, and/or how I might go about arresting the situation before I lose any more fish.

 

[mattbeau]

sorry about your losses



Nitrrates are ok up to a point I think its lethal at 160 but i try to keep mine in the 20-40 mark its good all your other water parameters are good.


how are the fish acting?

scraping on ornaments and substrate is a sign of parasites or ich.
look at the poo for worms or anything out of the ordinary. also with the scalp missing thing does it look like skin pealing away, it might be a sign of fungus.


I have 2 dwarf garamis 2 corys 3 otos and 5 neons I generally give them a varying diet to keep them happy like frozen brine shrimp pellets and frozen blood worms. I have had no problems with them since i started doing this, happy fish are healthy fish. I also add novaqua with every water change which is a water condichiner with eccinecia (SP?)

Thats all the advice i can offer since im still new to this, going on 3 mo

I wouldnt blame petsmart right away, quarentine is always a good thing to do when adding lots of fish to a well establishe tank from a new or risky source




I piced up 3 otos from petsmart out here and have had no problems for two weeks now

i generally shop at one particular petsmart as there staff is knowladgable, and thier tanks are well maintained. there are of course bad pet smarts but there are also bad local LFS'

 

[tttnjfttt]

Some of the other cardinals are currently also acting sick and one of the white clouds.

Some of the fish that have died (or are sick)have had almost a section of its scalp missing skin and now one of the cardinal has what looks like a burn on its side (never had problems with our heater before). Some of the fish just looked sick and died. There is absolutely no sign of Ich, the water in both tanks is still in great condition (no ammonia, no nitrates, no nitrites).

[snapback]861373[/snapback]​

First of all, what do you mean by acting sick? Are they scratching on things, being lethargic, gasping, hanging out at the surface, not eating, clamped fins...?

The missing skin and "burn" sound like ulcers, which are USUALLY caused by a bacterial infection, often columnaris. (Ulcers can occasionally be caused by a viral infection, which is untreatable and usually fatal). To treat these, you will need to treat with antibiotics. You can add some salt into the 30 gal (no scaless fish) which can help them feel better, but you don't want to use this in your 55 gal because of the cats. Also, turning the temp down in your tank will also help slow the diseases process. http/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hdcolumn.htm

 

[tttnjfttt]

I wouldnt blame petsmart right away, quarentine is always a good thing to do when adding lots of fish to a well establishe tank from a new or risky source

[snapback]861409[/snapback]​

I think in this case, petsmart actually might be to blame. This guy's tank (sorry if you are a gril) has been stable for quite a while. His water looks good, and because his nitrAtes are so low, it is obvious he does very regular water changes. The one new factor was the fish being added from petsmart. Remember, when they get their fish, they are shipped, which can be very stressful to fish. Stress is the number one cause of disease.

You are right though, it is always a good idea to quarentine new fish to prevent outbreaks of disease.

 

[mattbeau]

I think in this case, petsmart actually might be to blame. This guy's tank (sorry if you are a gril) has been stable for quite a while. His water looks good, and because his nitrAtes are so low, it is obvious he does very regular water changes. The one new factor was the fish being added from petsmart. Remember, when they get their fish, they are shipped, which can be very stressful to fish. Stress is the number one cause of disease.

[snapback]861415[/snapback]​

it might have been a combination of a lot of things, i wasnt questioning the care, it is quite obvious that hes done well with his tank, i've done far worse, ive changed pet stores and havent had any problems since. (except the puffer but that was a learning process)

its obviouse that the new fish that were added were most likely the root cause.


I agree stress is the number one cause of disease. I would say becasue of the sensitive tetras avoid using meds if possible. antibiotics will also affect your bacteria.

question though.
by lowering the temp wouldn't it also slow down the metabolism and therefore slowi down the immune system?

just a thought.
If he/she keeps the lights off for a little longer during the day to let the fish rest up a little.


salt isn't very good for tetras either, i dont know anything about white clouds though:


-Although NaCl is not composed of any truly "hard" ions (laundering ions of Mg or Ca, which produce the hard water stains on your tank and are the only ions that count in true carbonate hardness), it does raise the total dissolved solids in the water... these add up to raise general hardness, or GH. This is not well tolerated by a number of fish, especially true softwater fish from places like the Amazon river basin, where there are very few electrolytes of any kind in the water. These fish include (but are not limited to) neon tetras, cardinal tetras, rummy nose tetras, hatchetfish, elephantnoses, and discus... in addition, most live plants will not tolerate it either.


-from Badman's Tropical fish at http/badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html

 

[tttnjfttt]

by lowering the temp wouldn't it also slow down the metabolism and therefore slowi down the immune system?

By lowering the temperature, I didn't mean taking the heater out. I meant lower the temp slightly, to around 76. Still warm enough for fish, low enough to slow the bacteria. I didn't realize the columnaris link I posted didn't talk about temperature in it. I used the one i did because my other bookmarked link focuses on the fuzzy version of columnaris, which would get many people to ignroe what I said, not realizing this is a different presentation of the same disease.

I would say becasue of the sensitive tetras avoid using meds if possible. antibiotics will also affect your bacteria.

In this case, I am 99% sure there is a bacterial infection going on in the tank. Bacterial infections are best dealt with by using antibiotic. Remember, to fish, bacterial infections are fatal if not treated.

If he/she keeps the lights off for a little longer during the day to let the fish rest up a little.

Turning the lights of will help reduce stress, but not slow down how fast the bacteria are reproducing. This is more than stressed fish. These are stressed fish.

salt isn't very good for tetras either, i dont know anything about white clouds though:

First of all, let me say that I don't believe salt should be used on a regular basis in any tank other than a marine tank. However, I have seen it help many fish greatly benefit from havign salt added to their water when sick. The key is to add it slowly, making sure it is disolved before adding it to the tank. If the fish show stress, then do a water change immediately. I also thought I said to not add salt to the 55 gal because of the pleco (assuming friendly pleico=pleco). If you re-read the positives in the article you posted, you will see that it would be helpful here. The fish have open sores, which salt helps heal. Salt can also help improve gill function, wich will help these fish since they are stressed and already fighting to survive. Salt also helps with bacterial infections (though not stated in this article)

 

[jollysue]

illuminating

 

[CatholicSin]

Thank you very very much for the feedback. All the new fish are dead, and within the last 24 hours most of my fish are back to normal, seems the tanks have weathered the storm, never again will I get fish from Petsmart just the regular fish store I bought all the other fish from.

Out of curiosity, if I end up having to treat the tank with salt, what is the correct ratio?

 

[Rivermud76]

you can avoid treating the tank itself if you choose to do saltwater dips. Place the sick fish in a saltwater solution for a short period of time then place back into the tank. You may have to repeat every few hours.

 

[tttnjfttt]

I have already used one tablespoon of salt for every 5 gallons. I use this with bettas (approximating), tiger barbs, and zebra danios. It is also what is printed on the box of my aquarium salt.

 

[jollysue]

so sorry, Catholic Sin