Fish meal ingredient in food

I've been involved in a few interesting threads about fish food ingredients and learned things in the last month I had no idea about from previous 10 years experience with tropical fish. I don't think I even bothered looking at the ingredients list in fish food, except for when I had Mbuna Malawi.

Am i correct in thinking that fish meal is one of the cheapest ingredients available and it's composition can include the left over bits from fish that no one else really wants? Companies can put the cheapest and most non-nutritional bits of fish into fish food as the main ingredient and just call it "fish meal"?

We know that the first item on the list of ingredients is the greatest ingredient and so forth, and if fish meal is on the ingredients, it's usually the first (main) ingredient.

I noticed Tetra use the term "fish and fish derivatives" and I wondered if this might be the same or similar to "fish meal"?

Also, am i correct that ingredients listed as "whole" such as "whole fish" is better? And even better still would be named whole fish such as "whole salmon", "whole herring" or "whole shrimp"?

I purchased these today OASE ORGANIX (see end of thread for pictures) and like the ingredients. I only got the "colour" one because it was the only micro granule they had. See below for some examples of fish foods and their main 5 ingredients.

Oase Organix granulate micro
Whole salmon, wheat germ, wheat flour, whole shrimp, whole herring

Oase Organix power flakes
Whole salmon, whole shrimp, wheat flour, whole herring, kelp

Oase Organix snack sticks
Whole salmon, whole shrimp, wheat flour, wheat germ, whole herring

Fluval Bug Bites tropical granules
Dried black soldier fly larvae, salmon, fish protein concentrate, green peas, potato

Fluval Bug Bites bottom feeder
Dried black soldier fly larvae, salmon, wheat, green peas, potato

Tetra min flakes
Fish and fish derivatives, Cereals, Yeasts, Vegetable protein extracts, Molluscs and crustaceans

Tetra micro granules
Fish and fish derivatives, Cereals, Vegetable protein extracts, Vegetables, Derivatives of vegetable origin

Tetra Pro/Premium
Fish and fish derivatives, Vegetable protein extracts, Cereals, Yeasts, Oils and fats

Hikari tropical micro pellets
Fish meal, krill meal, soybean meal, flaked corn, cuttlefish meal

Hikari tropical sinking wafers
Fish meal, wheat germ meal, soybean meal, wheat flour, whole crushed silkworm pupae

Hikari cichlid gold sinking
Fish meal, wheat flour, flaked corn, brewers dried yeast, corn gluten meal

Pretty much the “meal” part is mashed up “$&?

From farm animals to fish by products and etc…

I am sure you would live to eat something like that?


Whole foods are what you want

powerdyne6 said:

Pretty much the “meal” part is mashed up “$&?

From farm animals to fish by products and etc…

I am sure you would live to eat something like that?


Whole foods are what you want

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That's what I thought. And look at Hikari foods. All fish meal.

My favorite is "Derivatives of vegetable origin." We're not sure exactly what this stuff is, but we're pretty sure it originally came from some sort of plant.

Hikari has lots of flour in their foods and fish can't digest grains/ flour.

re:
Hikari cichlid gold sinking
Fish meal, wheat flour, flaked corn, brewers dried yeast, corn gluten meal

corn doesn't have gluten in it so I have no idea what corn gluten meal is.

WhistlingBadger said:

My favorite is "Derivatives of vegetable origin." We're not sure exactly what this stuff is, but we're pretty sure it originally came from some sort of plant.

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I think what Tetra mean is that one of the workers in the factory had their wife come in and sniff the product and she said "smells like something that gave me food poisoning at my local indian restaurant. I think it was vegetable dhansak or something" and so Tetra went with that.

It is also important to understand this bit of math. I will use the first food listed by the OP.
Oase Organix granulate micro
Whole salmon, wheat germ, wheat flour, whole shrimp, whole herring

There are no %s listed so all we know is they are biggest to lowest in order. So they could be:
Whole Salmon- 50%
wheat germ- 15
wheat flour- 14
whole shrimp -11
whole herring 10

Or maybe the could be:
\Whole Salmon- 35%
wheat germ- 28
wheat flour- 27
whole shrimp -7
whole herring- 3

In the first example the "whole" foods would be 71% and the fillers 29%. But in the second the "whole" foods would be 45% and the fillers 55%. We do not know. So in additions to reading the ingredient list, it makes sense also to read the Guaranteed Analysis. This shows a list like this one: GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Crude Protein min. 45%, Crude Fat min. 9%, Crude Fiber max. 4%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 12%

Here is the complete list for the Oase Organix Micro Color Granulate:
Complete food for ornamental fish: Feed 1-2 times daily. Raw protein 37%; raw fat 12%; raw fibre 1%; raw ash 9%. Ingredients: Whole salmon, wheat germ, wheat flour, whole shrimp, whole herring, kelp, wheat gluten. Additives: Nutritional additives (per 1,000 g): Vitamin A (3a672a) 14.000 IE, vitamin C (3a312) 800 mg, vitamin E (3a700) 680 mg, niacin (3a314) 100 mg, inositol (3a900) 100 mg, vitamin B2 (3a825i) 20 mg, vitamin B12 50 μg. Sensory additives (per 1,000 g): Astaxanthin (2a161j) 65 mg

This can get really interesting with some foods. I feed one of the Rapashy gel mixes to one tank. It is called Igapo Expolorer and was formulated for Repashy by Dr. Stephan Tanner of Swiss Tropicals.

Our formula for all Rainforest Species. Contains Invertebrates, Nuts, Fruits, Seeds, Legumes, Herbs and Greens.

INGREDIENTS: Black Soldier Fly Larvae Meal, Krill Meal, Banana Powder, Squid Meal, Mango Powder, Pea Flour, Mulberry Fruit Powder, Dandelion Powder, Seaweed Flour, Almond Flour, Coconut Flour, Ground Flax Seed, Alfalfa Meal, Locust Bean Gum, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Ginger, Cinnamon, Phaffia Yeast, Dried Watermelon, Rosehips, Hibiscus Flower, Marigold Flower, Calendula Flower, Paprika, Turmeric, Dried Kelp, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as preservatives), Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Manganese Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Copper Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate. Vitamins: (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex).

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Crude Protein min. 30%, Crude Fat min. 8%, Crude Fiber max. 5%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 10%.

My clown loaches shred this stuff before it can hit the bottom.

p.s. So far I have not encountered any species of fish which take vitamin pills.

I hate to break it to all of you, but all prepared foods are like buying frozen dinners in a mega supermarket. It may taste good and look good, but it's always a substitute for the real thing - real food. No start up has made a food for specialized scale or eye eaters, but outside of that, your average fish eats either other fish, including what they've eaten as their last meal, detritus (decaying stuff off the bottom of the stream or lake), plants and algae, micro-organisms and bacteria, tiny crustaceans, snails or insects. Most tiny fish are specialized in their diet, to one degree or another.

So if you want to feed them well, you prepare the food. You culture whiteworms, blackworms, daphnia, brine shrimp or mosquito larvae,while sometimes thawing frozen foods like bloodworms for your insectivores.

For herbivores you prepare zuccini, romaine lettuce, shred seaweed or find other local vegetables that can be blanched and dropped in. I use a lot of local dulse, a seaweed.

For omivores, the generalists, a mix of the two works fine.

I use a little flake, for colour, for veggies, or because the live food is coming along slowly. But the debates over brands are like arguing over supermarket A and B's respective lasagnas.

I have made my own frozen mixes, with dried soldier fly larvae (sold for chickens) crushed up, with blendered shrimp, baby food carrots and peas, astaxanthin and spirulina powder, and avian vitamins, which are water soluble. So my fish sort of take vitamin pills, when I get around to prepping a few sheets of frozen food.

GaryE said:

I hate to break it to all of you, but all prepared foods are like buying frozen dinners in a mega supermarket. It may taste good and look good, but it's always a substitute for the real thing - real food. No start up has made a food for specialized scale or eye eaters, but outside of that, your average fish eats either other fish, including what they've eaten as their last meal, detritus (decaying stuff off the bottom of the stream or lake), plants and algae, micro-organisms and bacteria, tiny crustaceans, snails or insects. Most tiny fish are specialized in their diet, to one degree or another.

So if you want to feed them well, you prepare the food. You culture whiteworms, blackworms, daphnia, brine shrimp or mosquito larvae,while sometimes thawing frozen foods like bloodworms for your insectivores.

For herbivores you prepare zuccini, romaine lettuce, shred seaweed or find other local vegetables that can be blanched and dropped in. I use a lot of local dulse, a seaweed.

For omivores, the generalists, a mix of the two works fine.

I use a little flake, for colour, for veggies, or because the live food is coming along slowly. But the debates over brands are like arguing over supermarket A and B's respective lasagnas.

I have made my own frozen mixes, with dried soldier fly larvae (sold for chickens) crushed up, with blendered shrimp, baby food carrots and peas, astaxanthin and spirulina powder, and avian vitamins, which are water soluble. So my fish sort of take vitamin pills, when I get around to prepping a few sheets of frozen food.

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We are not debating brands really Chris. We are debating ingredients, or that was my intention. We have to take into account the average hobbyist, who is not you, but we do aspire to be you or at least some parts of you, well your fish brain I guess, coup in Gabon aside!

Edit I am not saying it's beyond the rest of us to culture our own foods and buy more fresh ingredients of course.

TwoTankAmin said:

It is also important to understand this bit of math. I will use the first food listed by the OP.
Oase Organix granulate micro
Whole salmon, wheat germ, wheat flour, whole shrimp, whole herring

There are no %s listed so all we know is they are biggest to lowest in order. So they could be:
Whole Salmon- 50%
wheat germ- 15
wheat flour- 14
whole shrimp -11
whole herring 10

Or maybe the could be:
\Whole Salmon- 35%
wheat germ- 28
wheat flour- 27
whole shrimp -7
whole herring- 3

In the first example the "whole" foods would be 71% and the fillers 29%. But in the second the "whole" foods would be 45% and the fillers 55%. We do not know. So in additions to reading the ingredient list, it makes sense also to read the Guaranteed Analysis. This shows a list like this one: GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Crude Protein min. 45%, Crude Fat min. 9%, Crude Fiber max. 4%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 12%

Here is the complete list for the Oase Organix Micro Color Granulate:
Complete food for ornamental fish: Feed 1-2 times daily. Raw protein 37%; raw fat 12%; raw fibre 1%; raw ash 9%. Ingredients: Whole salmon, wheat germ, wheat flour, whole shrimp, whole herring, kelp, wheat gluten. Additives: Nutritional additives (per 1,000 g): Vitamin A (3a672a) 14.000 IE, vitamin C (3a312) 800 mg, vitamin E (3a700) 680 mg, niacin (3a314) 100 mg, inositol (3a900) 100 mg, vitamin B2 (3a825i) 20 mg, vitamin B12 50 μg. Sensory additives (per 1,000 g): Astaxanthin (2a161j) 65 mg

This can get really interesting with some foods. I feed one of the Rapashy gel mixes to one tank. It is called Igapo Expolorer and was formulated for Repashy by Dr. Stephan Tanner of Swiss Tropicals.

Our formula for all Rainforest Species. Contains Invertebrates, Nuts, Fruits, Seeds, Legumes, Herbs and Greens.

INGREDIENTS: Black Soldier Fly Larvae Meal, Krill Meal, Banana Powder, Squid Meal, Mango Powder, Pea Flour, Mulberry Fruit Powder, Dandelion Powder, Seaweed Flour, Almond Flour, Coconut Flour, Ground Flax Seed, Alfalfa Meal, Locust Bean Gum, Citric Acid, Lecithin, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Ginger, Cinnamon, Phaffia Yeast, Dried Watermelon, Rosehips, Hibiscus Flower, Marigold Flower, Calendula Flower, Paprika, Turmeric, Dried Kelp, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as preservatives), Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Manganese Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate, Copper Methionine Hydroxy Analogue Chelate. Vitamins: (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex).

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Crude Protein min. 30%, Crude Fat min. 8%, Crude Fiber max. 5%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 10%.

My clown loaches shred this stuff before it can hit the bottom.

p.s. So far I have not encountered any species of fish which take vitamin pills.

Click to expand...

Thanks for contributing. What do your academic ways and research pedigree tell the average hobbyist who is looking online for the best quality foods they can give their fish? I know a lot depends on species etc, but do you have any advice with how we can work out the best foods when we study the ingredients and guaranteed analysis? I know it's not so simple. Maybe impossible. For example, I know to be wise if a fish food says "high protein" because it depends what protein for example.

Addition for @GaryE I am not saying it's beyond the rest of us to culture our own foods and buy more fresh ingredients of course.

When I'm not causing the overthrow of corrupt political systems in foreign countries, I do like to fiddle with fish stuff.

Doing enough veggie food for a year takes half an hour... you slice it and let the freezer break the fibre.

But whatever ingredients, I think a good food for insect eaters has to have whole bugs in it, and the shells, wings etc are necessary roughage. You need an insect food, a protein food, maybe with shrimp or fish in it, a veggie food, etc. If you want to feed fish right with prepared foods, you need a few canisters on the shelf. No one type will do it.

Homemade frozen food needs a blender and for those who love you to be away for long enough to air out the house. The smell doesn't appeal to healthy humans.

I need to have a cooking show on TV.

I'm off to slice up spam and bologna, throw some tinned fruit salad into the bright green jello, toss in some nice salty tinned peas and then deep fry it all. Mmm. Not a speck of fish meal...

GaryE said:

When I'm not causing the overthrow of corrupt political systems in foreign countries, I do like to fiddle with fish stuff.

Doing enough veggie food for a year takes half an hour... you slice it and let the freezer break the fibre.

But whatever ingredients, I think a good food for insect eaters has to have whole bugs in it, and the shells, wings etc are necessary roughage. You need an insect food, a protein food, maybe with shrimp or fish in it, a veggie food, etc. If you want to feed fish right with prepared foods, you need a few canisters on the shelf. No one type will do it.

Homemade frozen food needs a blender and for those who love you to be away for long enough to air out the house. The smell doesn't appeal to healthy humans.

I need to have a cooking show on TV.

I'm off to slice up spam and bologna, throw some tinned fruit salad into the bright green jello, toss in some nice salty tinned peas and then deep fry it all. Mmm. Not a speck of fish meal...

Click to expand...

Perfect. Top quality humour. Top quality advice Gary.

GaryE said:

I hate to break it to all of you, but all prepared foods are like buying frozen dinners in a mega supermarket. It may taste good and look good, but it's always a substitute for the real thing - real food.

Click to expand...

I wish I could buy frozen cats in the supermarket, save a lot of hunting time. Although I do enjoy a good chase from time to time

Frozen is really not all that awful any more than frozen veggies are not awful for us. To produce frozen cultured foods on a commercial scale requires that they have several qualities. The first is they do not carry anything nasty for the fish, next they must not have lost much of their nutritional value in the transfer from ready to eat and frozen. Finally, they need to remain frozen during their movement from being frozen to when one of us buys them.

But as to how we can trust the ingredients of what we feed our fish when we do not culture and/or prepare all the food we feed? We need to match qhat we feed to have some reasonable relation to the needs of the fish and to seem degree resemble what they would eat in the wild. In some ways this can be enhanced. So, to the extent we can see from labeling that these things are moderately or moreso likely the case, we can move on to the next test.

And that is how do the fish respond to their diet. This means a lot more than are they alive. There is a list of things we can use to determine this. The answers to the below Qs are often species specific.
Do our fish eat it when we feed it? Give them a chance to accept new foods. You may have to feed only it until they do try it.
Do our fish grow as expected? Healthy fish grow once adult size it can be difficult to spot any growth.
Do our fish develop the colors and appearance as expected? Many fish change their coloration and even appearance as they grow/age.
Do our fish engage in spawning behavior if expected to do so? Trying is a good sign, succeeding is even better.
Do our fish behave as expected?
Do our fish outlive their average life expectancy? This can be a very long term proposition in a lot of cases.

In addition, it is up to use to provide proper accommodations, tank mates and parameters. No amount of quality in diet can overcome making wrong choices for these things.

I had/have neither the space, the time or the desire to culture live foods. I also understand they are the best options in many cases. I did mess around with hatching BS for angel fry and getting red wiggler worms. I fed fresh veggies to bristlenose plecos as well. But that was about it.

But I believe quality frozen is a good second choice when done right. My next choice has been Gepashy gel mixes. My current choice in flakes is a mix I create from kensfish flakes and my sinking foods are Ebo-Aquaristik from Germany. I fo mess around with Hikari Algae Wafers and what is left of my kensfish singling sticks.

What I do know is what I feed has been sufficient for me to have been breeding well over 1,000 pleco fry over the years. I do not include the bristlenose as they were like rabbits. My Hypancistrus plecos typically produce an average if about 15 eggs. Other plecos I have fiddled with give more eggs. My offspring are healthy and I get reports back from buyers that they have gotten babies from my babies. I firmly believe quality of food is a key component when breeding fish.

Most hobbyists do not do live and/or home made foods for any number of reasons. But this doesn't preclude our being able to feed a more than just adequate diet if we make the effort and can spend a bit more than average for the foods we choose.

I have to tip my fish hat to Gary as he is the exception and not the rule. I do have one question for him, do you deliver?

edited for typos ans spelling