Cloudy water?

SolarShiva · May 26, 2023

Hello, I’m new here and hope someone can help me as I’ve never had this exact problem before, and I’m not sure where exactly to post this.

I just upsized my tank last weekend, from a 10 to 20. The 20 isn’t a new tank, I used it before I downsized to the 10 with no problems. The water was a little cloudy when I filled it which wasn’t unexpected since I bought new substrate and just couldn’t wash off all the dust/clay. However it has gotten cloudier since, and isn’t the color the substrate, or even the new driftwood, would make it. It doesn’t seem to be affecting the fish as they’re all still living and look just fine but I’d like to clear it up, just have no idea how since I don’t know why it’s so cloudy. I’ve tried a water clarifier and it hasn’t helped.

And also, though I had driftwood in the 10 with no problem, and in this tank before, this new driftwood has, for lack of a better word, slimy stuff(not algae) growing on it, and I’m not sure why as no prior driftwood had this happen. Though this new driftwood is spider wood, the prior driftwood wasn’t.

Can anyone help me figure this out?

Thank you!

jaylach · May 26, 2023

You used new substrate so lost a lot of good bacteria. Is it the same filter from the old tank? If so my guess would be a bacteria bloom. Could easily be a bacteria bloom even if the filter is new. Have you checked the water for ammonia/nitrites/nitrates? If the cloudiness is sort of milky or grayish it is most likely a bacteria bloom.

As to the spider wood it is prone to grow a fungus which is totally non-toxic and harmless if the wood is properly prepared by the seller' However, if not properly prepared, it can be very toxic. Since you say the fish are fine I would say it is all fine but then I have no idea how long it or the fish have been in the tank.

A good picture of the wood and tank would help a lot as a picture is worth a thousand words and I'm just replying in accordance to what you posted.

Byron · May 27, 2023

As noted in the above post, there are two very different issues. Let's start with the cloudiness. Particulate matter which may be microscopic and larger can occur from the substrate. This is not a problem, it will settle out on its own. Water changes can help this one, by removing some of the particulate matter. When changing the substrate, I always fully drained the tank once completed and refilled being careful not to disturb the substrate (run/pour the fresh water into a large bowl so it slowly overflows). That was the end of that cloudiness issue.

The more common cloudiness is from a bloom, which can be bacterial, organic or diatom. I have had the first two, not the third so far as I know. The bacteria causing a bloom are those that live in the substrate and feed on dissolved organics. Common in ne tanks--you might be surprised at how much dissolved organics occur in the tap water (chlorination has nothing to do with this) and these bacteria can multiply in about 20 minutes, so they rapidly do so and the water becomes cloudy. Water changes are useless here, as they just bring in more organics.

Never use any clarifiers if fish are present. Most of these work by binding particulate matter into sizesthat can more easily be trapped in the filter media. But they also bind fish gills. If you have used these, do a major water change to get rid of what you can.

As for the "slime," this can be deadly toxic or completely safe. Only an examination by a microbiologist can tell which, so be careful. The toxic fungus will affect fish, usually their respiration is faster than normal even when resting, they may become lethargic, they may gasp at the surface, and they can die fairly quickly.

SolarShiva · May 27, 2023

jaylach said:
You used new substrate so lost a lot of good bacteria. Is it the same filter from the old tank? If so my guess would be a bacteria bloom. Could easily be a bacteria bloom even if the filter is new. Have you checked the water for ammonia/nitrites/nitrates? If the cloudiness is sort of milky or grayish it is most likely a bacteria bloom.

As to the spider wood it is prone to grow a fungus which is totally non-toxic and harmless if the wood is properly prepared by the seller' However, if not properly prepared, it can be very toxic. Since you say the fish are fine I would say it is all fine but then I have no idea how long it or the fish have been in the tank.

A good picture of the wood and tank would help a lot as a picture is worth a thousand words and I'm just replying in accordance to what you posted.

I did use the substrate that was in the 10 too, just needed more for the 20 so had to get new stuff. It’s a brand new filter, the old was an undergravel. Haven’t tested the water but I can. If it is a bacteria bloom what can I do to fix it? Never had this occur before.

It’s been a week now since I set up the new tank and all the fish are still looking good. Tank and the best picture I could get if the wood, due to the cloudiness, are attached along with one from the first day to show the change in the level of cloudiness.

SolarShiva · May 27, 2023

Byron said:
As noted in the above post, there are two very different issues. Let's start with the cloudiness. Particulate matter which may be microscopic and larger can occur from the substrate. This is not a problem, it will settle out on its own. Water changes can help this one, by removing some of the particulate matter. When changing the substrate, I always fully drained the tank once completed and refilled being careful not to disturb the substrate (run/pour the fresh water into a large bowl so it slowly overflows). That was the end of that cloudiness issue.

The more common cloudiness is from a bloom, which can be bacterial, organic or diatom. I have had the first two, not the third so far as I know. The bacteria causing a bloom are those that live in the substrate and feed on dissolved organics. Common in ne tanks--you might be surprised at how much dissolved organics occur in the tap water (chlorination has nothing to do with this) and these bacteria can multiply in about 20 minutes, so they rapidly do so and the water becomes cloudy. Water changes are useless here, as they just bring in more organics.

Never use any clarifiers if fish are present. Most of these work by binding particulate matter into sizesthat can more easily be trapped in the filter media. But they also bind fish gills. If you have used these, do a major water change to get rid of what you can.

As for the "slime," this can be deadly toxic or completely safe. Only an examination by a microbiologist can tell which, so be careful. The toxic fungus will affect fish, usually their respiration is faster than normal even when resting, they may become lethargic, they may gasp at the surface, and they can die fairly quickly.

I just did a water change and the cloudiness came back immediately. Posted pictures in my other reply of day 1 and now. The tank was completely empty when I put in the new substrate and I put the old in on top of it so I would think that would help some wouldn’t it? How do you deal with a bacteria bloom? First time encountering this problem and our best fish store closed several years ago so don’t have one to ask, only have Petco and petsmart around now, unless I want to drive a ways to get to a good one, and I’d rather not.

Haven’t noticed any problems with faster breathing or gasping, only the betta goes to the top to breathe like usual. So unless it will take longer than a week for this to occur I’m guessing it’s the non-toxic kind of slime.

Fishies4Ever · May 27, 2023

You have a beautiful tank! For cloudiness I always recommend to do a larger than normal water change and go from there.

jaylach · May 27, 2023

SolarShiva said:
I just did a water change and the cloudiness came back immediately. Posted pictures in my other reply of day 1 and now. The tank was completely empty when I put in the new substrate and I put the old in on top of it so I would think that would help some wouldn’t it? How do you deal with a bacteria bloom? First time encountering this problem and our best fish store closed several years ago so don’t have one to ask, only have Petco and petsmart around now, unless I want to drive a ways to get to a good one, and I’d rather not.

Haven’t noticed any problems with faster breathing or gasping, only the betta goes to the top to breathe like usual. So unless it will take longer than a week for this to occur I’m guessing it’s the non-toxic kind of slime.

Assuming that it is a bacteria bloom you do nothing as it will take care of itself. In my opinion I would consider it likely that there is very little bacteria in the tank and it is re-cycling.

Byron · May 27, 2023

SolarShiva said:
I just did a water change and the cloudiness came back immediately. Posted pictures in my other reply of day 1 and now. The tank was completely empty when I put in the new substrate and I put the old in on top of it so I would think that would help some wouldn’t it? How do you deal with a bacteria bloom? First time encountering this problem and our best fish store closed several years ago so don’t have one to ask, only have Petco and petsmart around now, unless I want to drive a ways to get to a good one, and I’d rather not.

Haven’t noticed any problems with faster breathing or gasping, only the betta goes to the top to breathe like usual. So unless it will take longer than a week for this to occur I’m guessing it’s the non-toxic kind of slime.

Ths is a bacterial bloom, I explained what this is previously. The waste consuming bacteria have to establish in the substrate. These are not the nitrifying bacteria, and cycling is not at all involved. Water changes will not improve this. As to how long it will take, it depends upon the individual circumstances. I used to see mild cloudiness after every water change, always gone next day. I had a fish room of 8 or 9 tanks, and now and then one would develop more of this, and take a few days to clear, once or twice several weeks.

Monitor the fish conditions on the fungus, and hope for the best.

jaylach · May 27, 2023

Byron said:
Ths is a bacterial bloom, I explained what this is previously. The waste consuming bacteria have to establish in the substrate. These are not the nitrifying bacteria, and cycling is not at all involved. Water changes will not improve this. As to how long it will take, it depends upon the individual circumstances. I used to see mild cloudiness after every water change, always gone next day. I had a fish room of 8 or 9 tanks, and now and then one would develop more of this, and take a few days to clear, once or twice several weeks.

Monitor the fish conditions on the fungus, and hope for the best.

Thanks!

I always thought that such a bloom was nitrifying bacteria. Always good to learn something new.

sharkweek178 · May 30, 2023

jaylach said:
Thanks! I always thought that such a bloom was nitrifying bacteria. Always good to learn something new.

From what I understand, they are bacteria that consume organic matter. They are usually kept under control by the chlorine in the water. But since we remove the chlorine they multiply and then die off after they consume all of whatever trace organic matter is available.

Byron · May 30, 2023

This information is from my research into freshwater bacteria several years ago for an online article.

Bacteria occur in two forms, autotrophic and heterotrophic.

Autotrophic bacteria synthesize their own food, and they require oxygen so they are termed aerobic. Some do this via photosynthesis using sunlight, oxygen and water. Others use chemosynthesis, a process whereby they manufacture carbohydrates from carbon dioxide (CO2) and water using chemical nutrients rather than sunlight as the energy source. Science now believes that chemosynthesis was what allowed life to begin on earth, a view supported by the fairly recent discovery of the remarkable ecosystems around the hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor that have absolutely no relationship with sunlight—conditions very similar to those that initially existed on the earth for hundreds of millions of years before any form of life appeared.

Heterotrophic bacteria cannot synthesize their own food so they need organic material such as fish waste, dead bacteria, fish and plant matter, etc., and while some are aerobic, many are facultative anaerobes, meaning that they can survive in either the presence or absence of free oxygen. Anaerobes are organisms that do not require free oxygen for growth. This has significant consequences in aquaria.

Waste Control Bacteria

These species of heterotrophic bacteria break down dead organic matter like fish waste, dead fish or plant matter, uneaten fish food, dead bacteria, etc. Some are aerobic, but many species are facultative anaerobes, able to live with or without oxygen. Like all bacteria, they colonize surfaces, and these are most prevalent in the substrate and the filter media. Many species can survive complete drying, allowing them to remain potent even when filter media that has been previously used is completely dry.

These bacteria have only one requirement to appear and live: organics. They compete with autotrophic bacteria for both oxygen and surface area; studies show that even in relatively clean environments, they occupy more than 50% of the available surface area. And given that they can reproduce within 15-60 minutes—compare this to the 12-32 hours required by nitrifying bacteria—you can see how easily these heterotrophic bacteria can overwhelm the system. In a filter, if sludge is allowed to increase, heterotrophic bacteria will multiply so fast they actually smother and kill the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria.

The best control is limiting organic carbon which comes from dead organic matter. In non-planted tanks this is more crucial, and here is where carbon filtration helps, since it adsorbs organic carbon which is essential for these bacteria. Regular partial water changes, minimal feeding, removal of any dead fish or plant matter, rinsing filter media often, never using products that purport to reduce sludge—all these will aid in controlling heterotrophic bacteria. Live plants is one of the best methods; oxygen is released into the substrate, and plants assimilate the organic nutrients.

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