odessa barb aggression

WhistlingBadger · May 15, 2023

So here's the deal. I've long wanted to keep odessa barbs (Pethia padamya) because they're reputed to be very peaceful, and the coloring of the males is amazing. I finally have a biotope going to that they would fit in, so I ordered six from TWS.

Two troubles: I got a group of four females and two males. The females are rather non-descript and I'd like more males. But the bigger problem is the agression level. These fish are CONSTANTLY chasing each other, so much that the tank isn't even fun to watch.

Setup: A 30 gallon tank, filled to only 12" deep. So it functions as a 20 long, 30" long by 12" wide by 12" high. A whole bunch of rocks and driftwood; moderate to fast current; water temp around 70 F most of the time (room temperature). Tank simulates a shallow, fast-flowing hillstream. Tankmates are choprae danios, hillstream loaches, and some tiny stone loaches. No aggression observed in other species.

I suspect the problem might be lack of space, as there is a LOT of hardscape in this tank. (Click the link in my signature to get a look at it) But it's also possible that my numbers are too low; most websites say to get at least five, but shoaling species tend to like larger groups.

I would love to get more males, if more members of the shoal would alleviate the problem. But if lack of space is the problem, then perhaps I need to get rid of some, or even rehome the entire group and get more chopraes instead. (then there's the issue of how in the world I'm going to catch these things, but that's another discussion)

Things aren't OK right now, but I certainly don't want to make it worse. Anybody have experience with this species? What should I do?

Byron · May 15, 2023

The issue is almost certainly numbers. I ould never go below 8, and that really is not sufficient, so another 5 or 6 to total 11 or 12 should solve your problem. Get them ASAP, because some fish will quickly establish a sort of hierarchy, and newcomers may have problems. But this is not a particularly aggressive speecies, so this should not (hopefully) be an issue. The more the better.

As Ihave mentioned many times in threads, studies have shown a marked increase in aggression in groups less than 10. Group sizes of 3, 5 and 10 were studied, and in all cases the aggression was increased in the groups of 3 and 5, but did not increase at all in groups of 10. And perhaps even more telling, the fish in the smaller groups showed a marked latency to feed, which was not present in the groups of 10. Very instructive.

Following excerpts from my online profile of the species may provide some insight on this nice fish.

Compatibility/Temperament: Lively but peaceful fish that will normally do well in a larger aquarium with similar-sized non-aggressive fish such as other barbs, rasbora and loaches. Must be kept in a group of at least eight but 10+ is advisable. Not suitable for slow, sedate fish because of its active swimming.

This is one of the most attractive of the smaller barbs. It is an active shoaling fish so the tank must provide adequate swimming room. The colour will be more intense if the aquarium has a dark substrate, with plants around the sides and back, and minimal light (which can partly be achieved with floating plants). Keeping the fish in a group of eight (preferably ten) or more will also intensify the colouration as the fish interact within the group. The fish move around the aquarium but tend to remain close to the middle in the water column.

As an aside, the common name Odessa Barb has a history. This fish first appeared near Odessa, Ukraine (hence the common name) in the early 1970's and was assumed to be a hybrid of other barb species. The exact scientific species was unknown until the fish was first discovered in its habitat by Ralf Britz in 2003 and subsequently described and named by Britz and Sven Kullander as Puntius padamya in 2008.

WhistlingBadger · May 15, 2023

Byron said:
The issue is almost certainly numbers. I ould never go below 8, and that really is not sufficient, so another 5 or 6 to total 11 or 12 should solve your problem. Get them ASAP, because some fish will quickly establish a sort of hierarchy, and newcomers may have problems. But this is not a particularly aggressive speecies, so this should not (hopefully) be an issue. The more the better.

As Ihave mentioned many times in threads, studies have shown a marked increase in aggression in groups less than 10. Group sizes of 3, 5 and 10 were studied, and in all cases the aggression was increased in the groups of 3 and 5, but did not increase at all in groups of 10. And perhaps even more telling, the fish in the smaller groups showed a marked latency to feed, which was not present in the groups of 10. Very instructive.

Following excerpts from my online profile of the species may provide some insight on this nice fish.

Compatibility/Temperament: Lively but peaceful fish that will normally do well in a larger aquarium with similar-sized non-aggressive fish such as other barbs, rasbora and loaches. Must be kept in a group of at least eight but 10+ is advisable. Not suitable for slow, sedate fish because of its active swimming.

This is one of the most attractive of the smaller barbs. It is an active shoaling fish so the tank must provide adequate swimming room. The colour will be more intense if the aquarium has a dark substrate, with plants around the sides and back, and minimal light (which can partly be achieved with floating plants). Keeping the fish in a group of eight (preferably ten) or more will also intensify the colouration as the fish interact within the group. The fish move around the aquarium but tend to remain close to the middle in the water column.

As an aside, the common name Odessa Barb has a history. This fish first appeared near Odessa, Ukraine (hence the common name) in the early 1970's and was assumed to be a hybrid of other barb species. The exact scientific species was unknown until the fish was first discovered in its habitat by Ralf Britz in 2003 and subsequently described and named by Britz and Sven Kullander as Puntius padamya in 2008.

Thanks, Byron. It seems like a group of 11 or 12 could seriously overpopulate the tank, as it's only a 20 long. I'm wondering if this tank is just too small for the species to be kept properly. Thoughts on that?

Also, does there need to be a certain male-female ratio? If I do get more, I'd rather get several more males, since they are much nicer to look at. In my experience most barbs don't really care about that sort of thing, but I want to make sure.

Byron · May 15, 2023

WhistlingBadger said:
Thanks, Byron. It seems like a group of 11 or 12 could seriously overpopulate the tank, as it's only a 20 long. I'm wondering if this tank is just too small for the species to be kept properly. Thoughts on that?

Also, does there need to be a certain male-female ratio? If I do get more, I'd rather get several more males, since they are much nicer to look at. In my experience most barbs don't really care about that sort of thing, but I want to make sure.

I saw "30 gallon" previously and ignored the dimensions, sorry. Yes, the tank is too small for an adequate sized group, and they are active swimmers so they need space. These fish reach very close to 3 inches/7 cm and a 3-foot length is minimum for a group if on their own. A 4-foot tank would obviously be better, but the authorities say 3-foot is minimum.

Males are brightly coloured with orange-red on the flanks and the fin markings are more defined, while on females the flank colouration is confined to the caudal peduncle and lightly in the ventral fins; the female is rounder in shape. The left photo above is of a male, the right a female. You probably already know this. I would aim for an even gender balance with maybe one or two more females. I've not come across any specific advice so this should work.

WhistlingBadger · May 15, 2023

So @Byron, would you recommend trying to rehome them rather than getting more? I'd be sad about that but it might be for the best. This is one of the few times that SeriouslyFish has let me down...

Hey, @Boundava , didn't you keep this species? What would you recommend?

Byron · May 15, 2023

WhistlingBadger said:
So @Byron, would you recommend trying to rehome them rather than getting more? I'd be sad about that but it might be for the best. This is one of the few times that SeriouslyFish has let me down...

Hey, @Boundava , didn't you keep this species? What would you recommend?

I'll be honest...in a 20g long this is not a good idea. You could always get another 3-foot tank of course, lol.

I never back down on numbers needed simply because the scientific evidence makes it very clear that the fish in a group of 5 or 6 is under stress and they have no means of resolving it themselves. Interestingly if the tank space is insufficient it has much the same effect...increased aggression from stress that slowly increases until something gives.

Boundava · May 15, 2023

WhistlingBadger said:
So @Byron, would you recommend trying to rehome them rather than getting more? I'd be sad about that but it might be for the best. This is one of the few times that SeriouslyFish has let me down...

Hey, @Boundava , didn't you keep this species? What would you recommend?

Hey Tom Yes I do have a group of these in my 125. I never seen any aggression with them matter of fact they tend to hide in the driftwood and planting that I have on the left side of my tank by my Matten filter. I do have a lot bigger fish in the tank so that's probably why they tend to stay in the driftwood and the bolbitis.

I have a large group of red panda/melon barbs in there along with them, as well as a whole assortment of another fishes.

That's, along with the size of the tank could be why they are more elusive and peaceful in the tank.

WhistlingBadger · May 15, 2023

OK. I'll probably have to catch them and donate them to the pet store, which doesn't bode well for their fate either. But I don't think they can stay where they are. If I can get them out of there, I'll just get a bunch more choprae danios, unless someone can suggest another small, central Asian fish that likes strong current and cool temps.

CaptainBarnicles · May 16, 2023

I don't know about strong current but I always thought kyathit danios were lovely? Shame about the odessa barbs, they're stunning when they're all coloured up

WhistlingBadger · May 16, 2023

CaptainBarnicles said:
I don't know about strong current but I always thought kyathit danios were lovely? Shame about the odessa barbs, they're stunning when they're all coloured up

I like the look of those too. The orange fins and the "Chinese philosopher" mustaches. But based on my experience with the closely related zebra danios, they need a LOT of space. So probably no good for this tank.

WhistlingBadger · May 16, 2023

I'd like to try some Pethia gelius, dwarf gold barb, but I'm not sure how they'd do with the current. Anybody keep them?

WhistlingBadger · May 17, 2023

Well, my LFS said they'd trade me some more chopraes for the odessa barbs, so as soon as I figure out how to catch the things they'll probably be going away. Might have to drain the tank...they're that fast.

Byron · May 17, 2023

WhistlingBadger said:
Well, my LFS said they'd trade me some more chopraes for the odessa barbs, so as soon as I figure out how to catch the things they'll probably be going away. Might have to drain the tank...they're that fast.

Are you familiar with the two-hand with one holding a very large net stationery method, the other hand gently guiding the fish into the net? I'll try to explain if asked. Works every time with minimal (if any) tear up of the tank aquascape, and is less stress (though still significant) than chasing the fish around the tank.

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