Large Tank w/ Different Filtration

Wills said:

Loads of great info in this thread.

Just wanted to add that an other thing to consider is that it will take about 10-12 weeks for a terrestrial plant to adapt to growing in water so if you are transferring a plant grown in soil to water you might need to factor this in as well. But I'd strongly recommend testing your water when the fish are in as you are going to get ammonia readings. Maybe get one of those stick on disks so its constantly monitoring for you?

Also worth saying we all want to be wrong about this and I'll gladly eat my hat if needs be but I'm pretty sure you are going to be adding fish into a tank that can't control the ammonia levels. Adding some fast growing aquatic plants and the means to make them grow will achieve this though.

Wills

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Agree wether who is right I have learned more useful things from this thread.

In my opinion we are being a bit unrealistically rigid in our interpretation of the data presented. I believe there are situations where both sides of the fence are correct.

There is a lot of evidence that terrestrial plants will take up Ammonium as well as Nitrate:​

In general, a greater response of plant growth to NH4 + - N (+6.3% g -1 N) than NO3 - -N (+1.0% g -1 32 N) addition was detected across all species.

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From: https://bg.copernicus.org/preprints/bg-2018-124/bg-2018-124.pdf

Mixtures of nitrate and ammonium are beneficial in terms of plant growth, as compared to nitrate or ammonium alone, and therefore synergistic responses to both N sources are predicted at different steps ranging from acquisition to assimilation

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From: https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article/68/10/2501/2731728

Plants predominantly take up inorganic N forms and here mostly NH 4 + in presence to NO 3 − to cover their N demand for growth.

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From: http://www.nine-esf.org/files/ena_doc/ENA_pdfs/ENA_c6.pdf

Plants supplied with only NO3− had lower growth rates (0.17 ± 0.01 g g−1 d−1), shorter roots, smaller leaves with less chlorophyll than plants supplied with NH4+ alone or in combination with NO3− (RGR = 0.28 ± 0.01 g g−1 d−1). Ammonium was the preferred form of N taken up

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From: @TwoTankAmin post


What these all show is that we cannot state that Terrestrial Plants only take up Nitrogen from Nitrates but instead plant can take up Nitrogen in the form of Ammonium and Nitrates, and other forms as well according to the third document. Will the tank still establish bacteria to take Ammonia and convert it to Nitrite->Nitrate, yes, we cannot stop that nor would we want to, so some Nitrate will be produced, but terrestrial plants can take up ammonium. One effective fertilizer for commercial use is Ammonium Nitrate which provides both Ammonium and Nitrate to the plants.

If the purpose of the "TerraPhyte" method is to provide ammonium removal there does not seem to be any evidence to suggest it is not possible (it might not be easy). It is likely that different, plants, substrates, temperature and the PH and GH, KH will have an effect on the system. The real problem is that we do not have a reference. IE we know a heavily planted tank does well to control the ammonia in a tank, but we don't know how well terrestrial plants deal with the ammonia. Additionally, it is quite possible that the substrate used interferes with the ammonia removal, for example the soil might already have nitrifying bacteria, ammonia or nitrate fertilizer, etc.

If this was done as an experiment I would use:
- acidic water type setup to ensure most of the ammonia produced ends up as Ammonium.
- Use a nutrient free substrate for the terrestrial plants. Or at least a fertilizer/nitrifying bacteria free substrate, we need the plants to be partially Nitrogen limited to ensure constant uptake.
- Expect to monitor the water frequently to ensure spikes are caught.

My point of view is that the "TerraPhyte" method is possible, but there is not much of a roadmap to go by so failures might be more common that successes. If an escape route, alternative fish housing plan, is available I would not discourage someone from trying the method if they have some experience raising fish with more conventional waste handling methods.

Thank you @Uberhoust for posting the links to these articles. Terrestrial plants is something I have not needed to research since they have no direct link to an aquariium and my understanding of terrestrial plants removing nitrate is very widely held in this hobby. We have had many threads wherein this is one often recommended method to deal with nitrate in the source water, a problem I don't fortunately have. It will take me some time to read these articles, but I'd like to get backup for some of the findings in the Abstracts. The hobby's long-standing understanding seems to have been off base for some time. [Or perhaps not--see post #19 below.]

But from this information, it would seem a lot of extra work for no actual gain. The uptake of ammonia by most aquatic plants is well documented, and in an aquarium this would seem to be a far superior method rather that open-top tanks with their other pitfalls.

Just as an FYI- both of the papers I posted from dealt with aquatic not terrestrial plants.
There are some majot differences between aquatic and terrestrial plants. For one aquatics need little in tems of stem structure because the water holds them upright. On land a plant needs to do tis on its own.

CO2 is more abundant in the atomsphere than in water.
Ammonia is not abundant in the atmosphere.
Ammonia is abundant in a tank with fish and other organic material/

akushi Hachiya, Hitoshi Sakakibara, Interactions between nitrate and ammonium in their uptake, allocation, assimilation, and signaling in plants, Journal of Experimental Botany, Volume 68, Issue 10, 1 May 2017, Pages 2501–2512, https://doi.org/10.1093/jxb/erw449

Abstract​

Nitrogen (N) availability is a major factor determining plant growth and productivity. Plants acquire inorganic N from the soil, mainly in the form of nitrate and ammonium. To date, researchers have focused on these N sources, and demonstrated that plants exhibit elaborate responses at both physiological and morphological levels. Mixtures of nitrate and ammonium are beneficial in terms of plant growth, as compared to nitrate or ammonium alone, and therefore synergistic responses to both N sources are predicted at different steps ranging from acquisition to assimilation. In this review, we summarize interactions between nitrate and ammonium with respect to uptake, allocation, assimilation, and signaling. Given that cultivated land often contains both nitrate and ammonium, a better understanding of the synergism between these N sources should help to identify targets with the potential to improve crop productivity.

Byron said:

Aquatic plants in the tank water use ammonia/ammonium, not nitrate. Terrestrial plants use nitrate, not ammonia/ammonium. bacteria?

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This is false. Firstly, no plants can absorb ammonia. Secondly, ALL plants can absorb both ammonium and nitrate. Most aquatic plants prefer ammonium but will absorb nitrate (even nitrite) as necessary. Terrestrial plants tend to be more agnostic, absorbing both ammonium and nitrate readily. In fact, agriculturists/gardeners believe the very best form of fertilization incorporates both nitrate and ammonium based fertilizers.

Overall we have at least a couple major cycles to deal with within the confines of a relatively small volume of water. We have the nitrogen cycle and trying to keep the waste nitrogen products low, more like most natural bodies of water, keeping the fish and invertebrates healthy, but at the same time we need to provide nitrogen to keep the plants in a planted tank healthy. Additionally we have the situation where the aquatic plants, in most cases, provide ammonia removal that responds quicker to changes in ammonia concentration than the bacteria do in unplanted tanks. In an ideal situation our plants would consume all the ammonia but still be somewhat deficient in nitrogen using the nitrate pathway to top up their nitrogen requirements.

The other system that is frequently not considered is the Carbon cycle, and how that affects the aquarium as a whole. Terrestrial and aquatic plants get their carbon from the air and dissolved CO2 in the water, we can add CO2 to the aquarium to allow faster growth, or we keep a none technical tank. But this cycle affects the nitrogen cycle, faster growing plants require more nitrogen and subsequently affect how the nitrogen waste products from the fish are used. There are papers on the Carbon/nitrogen ratio which suggests that this ratio is important for the flora/fauna within bodies of water with the wrong ratio leading to issues such as cyanobacteria blooms.

It is the complexity and interdependence between these cycles, and others, which I believe has driven the water change schedule from the 20% monthly in the 70s to 50% weekly. By changing the water frequently we end up not really considering the impact of the cycles in the aquarium we just re-set it to an initial but acceptable starting point, remove the Nitrate and other dissolved "wastes" from the tank, remove the excess carbon and nitrogen by pruning the plants, cleaning the filter, and vacuuming the substrate. We can only view this as being balanced over a short period of time, to be properly balanced we would also have to have the components of the cycles that depend on anaerobic bacteria but that is impractical because these organisms need larger areas to colonize and we typically discourage anaerobic zones in our aquariums.

The "TerraPhyte" method suggested is another way to try and tackle this problem, personally I don't think it will work, but there is a possibility it will. I would be interested in seeing what comes of it. It is a different way of dealing with the nitrogen cycle but I don't believe it will deal with other cycles.

I will admit to a lot of opinion in the above

FYI I have been using Ammonia/Ammonium interchangeably because Ammonia/Ammonium exist in equilibrium based on temperature and pH, if you have Ammonia in the water you also have Ammonium at the pH ranges we deal with.

I am not sure what you mean by equilibrium. In the present discussion the difference does matter, I believe.

1 ppm of total ammonia in 80F water at different pHs
pH NH3 NH4
--- ppm ppm
9.0 0.3977 0.6023
8.5 0.1727 0.8273
8.0 0.0619 0.9381
7.5 0.0205 0.9795
7.0 0.0066 0.9934
6.5 0.0021 0.9979
6.0 0.0007 0.9993

We know that the bacteria are able to use NH4 when they have no other option and that they do this less efficiently than they can do so with NH3.

But what really matter, IMO it that there is no such thing as an established planted tank which handles ammonia etc. that doe not also contain nitrifying bacteria. One the other hand there are many established tanks which contain nitrifying bacteria and no live plants at all. This doe not change no matter what the pH or temperature levels are as long as they are not harmful or fatal for either the plants or the bacteria.

Nitrite is not very stable in water and it is rare that one can have it without also having ammonia as well. At least in tanks this is the case.

plebian said:

This is false. Firstly, no plants can absorb ammonia. Secondly, ALL plants can absorb both ammonium and nitrate. Most aquatic plants prefer ammonium but will absorb nitrate (even nitrite) as necessary. Terrestrial plants tend to be more agnostic, absorbing both ammonium and nitrate readily. In fact, agriculturists/gardeners believe the very best form of fertilization incorporates both nitrate and ammonium based fertilizers.

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You need to do your research because the majority of aquatic plants do take up ammonia/ammonium in preference to nitrite or nitrate. Floating plants are often termed ammonia sinks for very good reason.

Aquatic plants rapidly detoxify ammonia (Givan, 1979; Walstad, 2003). As NH3 enters the cell by simple diffusion across the membrane, it may combined with a hydrogen ion and convert to non-toxic ammonium which can then be stored in cell vacuoles. In one study, the cell vacuoles of Nitella clavata were found to contain more than 2,400 mg/l of ammonium. Aother method plants use to detoxify ammonia is to immediately use the ammonia to synthesize proteins. Toxic ammonia is combined with stored carbohydrates to form amino acids. Plants that grow well can toleratee more ammonia because they have more carbohydrates to combine with ammonia.

Byron said:

You need to do your research because the majority of aquatic plants do take up ammonia/ammonium in preference to nitrite or nitrate. Floating plants are often termed ammonia sinks for very good reason.

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You need to read more carefully. I stated quite clearly:

"Most aquatic plants prefer ammonium but will absorb nitrate (even nitrite) as necessary."

As for the rest of your post, you conveniently leave out how ammonia enters the plant's vascular system in the first place. It does so in the form of the ammonium ion NH4+ via the plant's root system. This is called cation exchange. Once the ammonium ion enters the plant, the plant then converts it to ammonia, combining it with other compounds to create the materials necessary for growth.

Un-ionized compounds (ammonia) cannot be absorbed by the plants roots. Finally, the OP is proposing the use of a terrestrial plant, which is agnostic as far as it's nitrogen source, and is absolutely doable.

It seems you like to ignore any bits contrary to your personal opinion.

Hello TFF. As promised, attached is a photo of my 52 gallon tank. No mechanical filtration, just one, large Chinese Evergreen. Have filled the tank roughly three-quarters full, because it was a used tank I picked up from the local thrift store. I resealed it and so far, no water is showing up on the floor. Have treated the tank water and there are roughly a dozen or so Guppies in there. Not much of a nitrogen source for such a large plant, but I plan to add more fish and fill the tank the rest of the way. The idea is that the roots of this plant will take in the nitrogen produced by the fish. I've added an air stone and put it under the plant roots. Lots of oxygen should stimulate further plant growth We'll see.

10 Tanks (Now 11)

Hello again with an update. The 52 gallon is roughly 80 percent filled. The dozen or so Guppies have been in the tank for 24 hours. All are doing well, the plant seems to be doing its job, but there's a lot of water too. I plan to change half the tank water about every three to four days for a while, just to be on the safe side as far as the fish are concerned. I realized that if one was willing to change half the tank water a couple of times a week, there would be no need for filtration of any kind. Because, the water change would remove dissolved waste before it could build up and hurt the fish. Guess a person motivated to do that would be one in 10,000!

10 Tanks (Now 11)

plebian said:

You need to read more carefully. I stated quite clearly:

"Most aquatic plants prefer ammonium but will absorb nitrate (even nitrite) as necessary."

As for the rest of your post, you conveniently leave out how ammonia enters the plant's vascular system in the first place. It does so in the form of the ammonium ion NH4+ via the plant's root system. This is called cation exchange. Once the ammonium ion enters the plant, the plant then converts it to ammonia, combining it with other compounds to create the materials necessary for growth.

Un-ionized compounds (ammonia) cannot be absorbed by the plants roots. Finally, the OP is proposing the use of a terrestrial plant, which is agnostic as far as it's nitrogen source, and is absolutely doable.

It seems you like to ignore any bits contrary to your personal opinion.

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Hello. Sorry, most of this information is going over my head. I think the thing to keep in mind with this plant is, it isn't aquatic, so it's able to take in the ammonia produced by the fish as soon as it becomes available, even before the bacteria can begin its process. So, if there's no ammonia, there will be a very small colony of bacteria.

10 Tanks (Now 11)

Hello. Another update on my no mechanical filters 52 gallon tank. Did a 50 percent water change and added a some more Guppies. There are at least 24 or maybe a few more in the tank. All doing well. The Chinese Evergreen has several blossoms on it, so apparently, it's getting enough NPK from the fish. Am feeding the fish a variety of foods that includes Spirulina. Spirulina is higher in protein than most fish foods, so the younger fish should grow nicely.

10 Tanks (now 11)

Hello. Last update on this 52 gallon with no mechanical filtration, just one large Chinese Evergreen to filter out the nitrogen produced by the fish and the snails. Added more Guppies to the tank. Have roughly 40 or so small fish in there. No changes in the health of the fish that I can see. Will continue with my plan to change half the water weekly and let the plant remove the dissolved waste material. I imagine if I simply removed and replaced most of the water weekly in the rest of my tanks, there'd be no need for mechanical filtration. The reason being, that most of the dissolved waste would be removed and the remainder would be diluted to a safe level in all the new, treated tap water.

10 Tanks (Now 11)