SUNKEN BELLY RAMS HELP (OLD THREAD:violent german blue rams ganging up (HELP)

My two female rams seem to be ganging up together ever since I introduced 3rd female to the tank.

I brought a pair to the tank initially and the female was hiding around, so I thought she would ease up by adding one more female, but it didn't work because she ganged up with this female and they started attacking the male.

Then later I brought one more pair into the tank and they both started attacking the new pair AND the first male. They ended up even killing my second male (from 2nd pair) last night. On top of all that it's not only these two attacking her, but also the male is (which was brought in 1st).

Now I'm in a dilemma, are my sexes wrong here or what is going on? I doubt that's the issue though because they are all round-bellied and have characteristics of females.
I also read that males are usually the aggressive ones.

I tried something though, I removed this last female (from the pair that male died) for some time and both females dropped the bullying and were swimming normally at the back of the tank, but as soon as I added her they started attacking her again plus chasing and picking on corys and tetras.

Here are photos of them.

Firstly, Rams are Cichlids and all Cichlids are territorial.
If you have an alpha male, it will attack everyone. It can kill other fish if the tank is too small.

How big is your tank?
Usually it's recommended to give at least 1 square foot(30cmx30cm) area for each fish.

Big belly does not guarantee that it's a female. The fish farms have fed them too much food that most of them have big belly.
But pinkish belly usually means it's a female though may not be 100%.

Your photo no.3 & 4 are not necessarily females.
I think males will attack other males more aggressively than females.(just my opinion).

It's best to introduce all fish at the same time.
If you introduce the more aggressive ones first, they will attack any new fish.
You may have to remove the aggressive fish temporarily to another tank for 1-2 weeks before putting it back.
But sometimes it may not work if you encounter the alpha males.

Whenever you introduce new fish, it's best to introduce 2-3 or more new fish instead of just 1 fish. The 1 fish will be attacked by the rest unless it's a bigger one.

Whenever you visit a fish shop, the alpha males usually will stay at the front of the tank displaying/showing their colours.
Fish staying at the back of the tank are usually the less aggressive ones.
The alpha males will also keep challenging other fish.
But they are usually more beautiful than those staying at the back of the tank.

The dwarf Cichlid "dance" is a well known problem. Lose one, add one, lose one add one - it can be a cycle that is ongoing for many fish lives lost.

There are tricks for managing territoriality, but they are not 100%.

Move all decor, to break up the territory markers (Cichlids are visual animals). Then immediately add a small group of new fish, before anyone has staked claims. It sometimes works.

Never assume you can sex rams with 100% efficiency. Many experienced ram breeders have discovered their supposed genders were totally wrong when couples laid eggs.

Never, ever keep 3 cichlids. If there are males (and sometimes when their aren't) the weakest fish gets pushed around. It's a bit like being the third wheel on someone's date - you aren't welcome. 4, 6, 8 - great. But 3 is every ram's least favourite number.

I've nothing to add except that the fish in pic 3 is a male

Thank you for your replies guys. I will try rearranging decor and if this won't work I'll rehome her.

I have 125l aquarium.
There are 9 neon tetras in it, 9 rasboras, 2 gouramis, 3 bronze corys and 4 guppy males next to these 4 rams. There was no problem until I introduced this last pair of rams. As I said they ended up killing my male and they are all chasing this female. She's also a feisty one because she's even picking on corys and chasing tetras occasionally.

Regarding 3rd photo. When i brought this fish in with male (1st photo), I found eggs on the back of tank glass. Cory that came with them couldn't have laid eggs, no? And there were no other so big fish in the tank that could've laid this big eggs, so it had to be her (3rd photo female) because male kept on rubbing himself to her and she was so round. Here's photo of her when she came.

That's why I believe she must be a female.

At least one of those rams looked like a male. Generally the females have pink bellies; i've never seen a male with pink belly but some-times the pink on a female might be quite faint - enough to confuse with a male. Generally speaking rams form pairs and everyone else is an intruder though i think once i saw a trio. There is of course a difference in behavior between immature and mature fishes as well as large groups (4 is not a large group). Last but least as Gary mentioned once establish adding another is an intruder esp if there is a bonded pair. For rams - your tank is a bit small - but if it has good scapeing it can probably support two bonded pairs - otherwise just one.

I went out and brought two more rams. Upon adding them these two gangers did chase them, but this has to do with a new fish coming in I think.

We tried so hard to select females in store, so I hope these are females? I see vents on both of them and pink bellies. What do you guys think?

anewbie said:

At least one of those rams looked like a male. Generally the females have pink bellies; i've never seen a male with pink belly but some-times the pink on a female might be quite faint - enough to confuse with a male. Generally speaking rams form pairs and everyone else is an intruder though i think once i saw a trio. There is of course a difference in behavior between immature and mature fishes as well as large groups (4 is not a large group). Last but least as Gary mentioned once establish adding another is an intruder esp if there is a bonded pair. For rams - your tank is a bit small - but if it has good scapeing it can probably support two bonded pairs - otherwise just one.

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Thank you. What about if I remove these two to a large bucket with an air stone temporarily, how long can they stay there with daily water changes? I am planning to move them to another tank after I buy it, but currently I have no other free tank, because another tank has betta in it and he can't stay with them.

xWarrior15 said:

Thank you. What about if I remove these two to a large bucket with an air stone temporarily, how long can they stay there with daily water changes? I am planning to move them to another tank after I buy it, but currently I have no other free tank, because another tank has betta in it and he can't stay with them.

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You can try but it doesnt' always work. Also the rams need to stay around 82 (temp) and if they become too stress they might develop bloat which usually leads to death.

anewbie said:

You can try but it doesnt' always work. Also the rams need to stay around 82 (temp) and if they become too stress they might develop bloat which usually leads to death.

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I just rearranged the whole tank and added extra driftwood, so far a few chases, but nothing serious after also adding two new rams which I assume are female. I added photos up.

I guess now I understand your problems after your explanations.
When the pair are breeding, they can become very aggressive especially the female.
I had heard of breeding pairs taking over the whole tank or at least 3/4 of the tank.
Breeding pairs are very aggressive especially the female.
I guess you introduced them at the wrong time when they are starting to breed.(imo)

Another suggestion is to use a divider to keep this aggressive pair from the newer Rams.

Some fish can gang up with other fish to attack another fish.
Or sometimes if a fish is attacking another fish, other fish may join in the attack.

after rearranging they started the same chase over and over again today. I took them out into a bucket with airstone for a couple of hours and they're again back at it. I don't know how to stop this and I think I give up to let them do whatever they wanna do. there's also other two females chasing one another.

xWarrior15 said:

after rearranging they started the same chase over and over again today. I took them out into a bucket with airstone for a couple of hours and they're again back at it. I don't know how to stop this and I think I give up to let them do whatever they wanna do. there's also other two females chasing one another.

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You could wait a while and see what happens but i suspect the only choice would be to remove the weaker female and return it and accept that you cannot add more. My experience with female ram<->ram aggression has always been negative with the one being chased eventually dying.

I think the only way to deal with this situation is to move all rams other than the 'gang' That's a male female pair and they object to all the other rams being in the same tank. The last of the photos in post #1 ( the second 'female from gang') is definitely a female - pink belly and a female breeding tube showing. The third photo (first 'female from gang') looks like a male to me - his fins, especially the pelvic fins, look to long for a female to me.

I solved the issue. Managed to arrange the LFS to accept the paired bullies and one of the rams which everyone attacked to be taken back. Now I have one male left who is calm and doesn't have any interest to pair with the remaining two females. I saw these two females are glass surfing now like they're stressed out. Maybe they miss their aggressive mates? xD either way I hope they'll be fine because I can't risk bringing more rams back in. But the gang pair had to go because they were terrorizing anyone in the tank that came around the driftwood.

I already lost one male because of them and yesterday my cory died of what I assume was stress induced self-poisoning.