Planted tank, cleaning gravel?

So I finally found a plant which thrived in my tank (or atleast survived, all other decomposed), and this plant spread itself all over. I even pulled some out from the middle today because it was a jungle!

I've seen a lot of heavily planted and beautiful tanks on YouTube and I wanted plants! But nobody ever mentioned these... Maybe they had bigger fish... But ...

My query is concerning two things, 1) since there's no way of vacuuming gravel now without uprooting and replanting all plants which I'm guessing people with heavily planted tanks don't do as it wouldn't be good for the plants?? Do you just rely on plants to convert all the crap to their food and that's it? I don't want to damage plant by deep cleaning.

2) Sorry if this question sounds cold hearted but sometimes it happens... when you cannot see if a fish has dropped dead, as they sometimes inexplicably do...How do you ensure your tank isn't being contaminated with decomposing fish? I was concerned about this hence removing some plants down the middle to create more space, this gives them less hiding places though... But me more visibility if a fish has dropped. Whilst cleaning today, I did find a female betta decomposing. I'm also sure I'm missing 2 male guppies but cannot see them anywhere.

(Just a side note, since I have enquired about one male guppies tail, I did some research and was also told by the fish exprrt that female bettas would be fine in a large group of make guppies. More than males for sure) I am hoping guppies and betta females haven't been hurting each other because I NEVER see them fighting during the day... Some of you said the tail was betta damage but I NEVER see nipping and I watch them a lot, especially during feeding.)

Divinityinlove said:

1) since there's no way of vacuuming gravel now without uprooting and replanting all plants which I'm guessing people with heavily planted tanks don't do as it wouldn't be good for the plants?? Do you just rely on plants to convert all the crap to their food and that's it? I don't want to damage plant by deep cleaning.

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Do not dig into the substrate around rooted plants. You can "vacuum" the open areas, but this depends upon the system. In one of my tanks I rarely if ever clean into the sand in open areas; in another I vacuum over the surface every week. If the tank is biologically balanced--not overstocked, fish not overfed, live plants--the detritus collecting in the substrate should be handled by the fish and various species of bacteria. Snails and shrimp can help here too.

The photo suggests the light may need reducing. And, are you using any fertilizer?

Divinityinlove said:

2) Sorry if this question sounds cold hearted but sometimes it happens... when you cannot see if a fish has dropped dead, as they sometimes inexplicably do...How do you ensure your tank isn't being contaminated with decomposing fish? I was concerned about this hence removing some plants down the middle to create more space, this gives them less hiding places though... But me more visibility if a fish has dropped. Whilst cleaning today, I did find a female betta decomposing. I'm also sure I'm missing 2 male guppies but cannot see them anywhere.

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I rarely "see" a dead fish; if one dies, as I know happens, I remove it if the corpse is visible. But usually I never see it. Provided the system is balanced this is not an issue, and with live plants doing well any "cycling" issue is impossible as the plants will rapidly use any ammonia.

I have seen the fully planted tanks in Horizon Aquatics and absolutely love them. I've also see some lovely videos about tanks that are never cleaned. I'd just keep an eye on the water paramters and only do what's necessary when it's needed. I'm currently building my own tanks in that fashion keeping a daily watch on all the chemical levels. So far, I only have very low level nitrate and nitrite levels to keep my eyes on, but the tanks have all been fully emptied and restarted again so possibly need a bit more time to reach complete satifactory levels. In the meantime I'm doing at least a 60% water change twice a week until things level out.

Byron said:

Do not dig into the substrate around rooted plants. You can "vacuum" the open areas, but this depends upon the system. In one of my tanks I rarely if ever clean into the sand in open areas; in another I vacuum over the surface every week. If the tank is biologically balanced--not overstocked, fish not overfed, live plants--the detritus collecting in the substrate should be handled by the fish and various species of bacteria. Snails and shrimp can help here too.

The photo suggests the light may need reducing. And, are you using any fertilizer?



I rarely "see" a dead fish; if one dies, as I know happens, I remove it if the corpse is visible. But usually I never see it. Provided the system is balanced this is not an issue, and with live plants doing well any "cycling" issue is impossible as the plants will rapidly use any ammonia.

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Hi, thanks, I was using fertilizer but only just realized carbon had to be taken out, so probably most of it was wasted anyway. Now I'm thinking to not give any because I have algae and it doesn't seem the plants need it. Why do you ask? Why does light need reducing? I was looking for a low light but haven't seen a good option yet. Suggestion? Thanks

Divinityinlove said:

Hi, thanks, I was using fertilizer but only just realized carbon had to be taken out, so probably most of it was wasted anyway. Now I'm thinking to not give any because I have algae and it doesn't seem the plants need it. Why do you ask? Why does light need reducing? I was looking for a low light but haven't seen a good option yet. Suggestion? Thanks

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The leaves seem more yellow than green, which is probably due to insufficient nutrients. It is true that fish food and water changes provide plant nutrients, but stem plants are fast growing plants meaning they need more food, and chances are the natural nutrients are likely insufficient. You want a comprehensive supplement. You are in the UK so I would recommend TNC Lite; it has everything except carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen and phosphorus. The first three are obviously naturally present, nitrogen comes from ammonia produced by fish and decomposition and is likely to be sufficient, and phosphorus in fish foods is more than adequate.

Excess fertilizer can cause algae, but given that it seems to be the reverse here, I would suggest the algae I can see on the lower plants (it is black brush algae) may be more a nutrient deficiency than excess. With insufficient nutrients, plants cannot use the light fully, and algae can take advantage. The TNC Lite should help (give it a few weeks, it is not overnight). Reducing the light duration may be helpful too. You can go as low as six hours each day (always in a continuous period). My tanks have seven hours and this has avoided all problem algae for five years now. I don't know the present duration, but reducing by an hour may help.

Might I ask what a North American equivalent to TNC lite would be?
Sorry to steal the thread
D

davros said:

Might I ask what a North American equivalent to TNC lite would be?
Sorry to steal the thread
D

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I haven't come across an exact equivalent, but there are two that are much the same, Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium and Brightwell Aquatics' FlorinMulti. These have all nutrients, but also include nitrate and phosphorus which are not necessary but are so minimal I doubt they have much of an impact. I've been using the Flourish for over 10 years now. The Flourish Tabs are even better because they do not leech nutrients into the upper water column which means less problem algae possibilities.

Byron said:

The leaves seem more yellow than green, which is probably due to insufficient nutrients. It is true that fish food and water changes provide plant nutrients, but stem plants are fast growing plants meaning they need more food, and chances are the natural nutrients are likely insufficient. You want a comprehensive supplement. You are in the UK so I would recommend TNC Lite; it has everything except carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen and phosphorus. The first three are obviously naturally present, nitrogen comes from ammonia produced by fish and decomposition and is likely to be sufficient, and phosphorus in fish foods is more than adequate.

Excess fertilizer can cause algae, but given that it seems to be the reverse here, I would suggest the algae I can see on the lower plants (it is black brush algae) may be more a nutrient deficiency than excess. With insufficient nutrients, plants cannot use the light fully, and algae can take advantage. The TNC Lite should help (give it a few weeks, it is not overnight). Reducing the light duration may be helpful too. You can go as low as six hours each day (always in a continuous period). My tanks have seven hours and this has avoided all problem algae for five years now. I don't know the present duration, but reducing by an hour may help.

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Thanks, yes that is black algae, I bought the black molly fish as I read they have teeth and eat black algae. But mollies got fungus after 1 week of being in the tank. Probably eating food waste. (One article said they're very resilient, another said they're highly susceptible to disease! /) Since they got fungus (and white spot actually) I decided to remove the carbon in order to medicate them as per instructions. When reading about why I have to remove carbon, I read that carbon also removes fertilizer! So, I've decided to keep it out for a period of time and see if it makes a difference to the plants. HOWEVER...

YES, I have this brand of fertilizer and used it for a whole year (but didn't know about the carbon so not sure how much was used by plants or lost into the carbon).... I STOPPED because I added java moss thinking it looked great in a picture, and the java moss started growing wild into a tornado shape in the middle of the tank! Meanwhile, it was only after the java moss addition that my other plants started yellowing.... it must be outcompeting the other plants and eating all the fertilizer? But EVERY single water change, I have to remove more of it because it attached itself to EVERY part of the tank, ornaments, driftwood, and wrapped around the stems of all plants!!! So I can't get fully rid of it, and I am concerned with putting in fertilizer that it will just be taken by the moss, which I'm going to remove each week!!

Please do you have suggestions to get around this?

We have had black algae 3 times now. I can reduce light but will it be enough light for the plants? Keep in mind, there is always green algae quickly growing on the tank sides also, you can't see here because I'd JUST done a clean, water change, and removed moss everywhere... (oddly at one point I bought otocinclus to get rid of green algae after a big deep clean, the algae didn't come back for ages and they all died, they wouldn't eat the algae wafers, or cucumber on sticks, they wouldn't even move, all they did was sleep on the plant leaves, then suck on the glass, then sleep, they wouldn't swim around to find the wafers! Now I have loads of algae and wonder if I buy otos will they eat the algae or die.

Any points helpful!

I almost always roll my eyes when someone writes that they made this or that change 'and never looked back', but...
Years ago now I switched from gravel to about 3-4" of sand - sometimes pool filter, sometimes play sand...AND I never touch the sand so as not to disturb the intricate and valuable biology living there. The beauty of sand is that nothing gets down under to rot and decay. Malaysian Trumpet Snails are caretakers of the sand. So needless to say, gravel vacuuming is a thing of an ancient past for me! Now some might suggest there would be a layer of mulm that builds up, but not in my display tank, but if there was, I wouldn't fret about it. (see Mulm and Algae, and Snails, Oh My). So water changes are a snap since it's just removing and replacing water (see Partial Water Changes, Fast and Easy).
As my friend Byron points out, if you must gravel vacuum a planted tank you just steer clear of rooted plants, and instead just vacuum the open areas. This will be fine and the rooted plants will use any decaying organics as nutrients, much like organic gardening. After all, nature doesn't vacuum the bottom of ponds or lakes.
Best wishes for happy fishkeeping!

i never touche the gravel near my plants

Responding to the issues/questions concerning moss and fertilizer and light/algae in post #8. Moss is not going to use all the nutrients because it is slow growing and fast-growing plants take up more and faster. Photosynthesis enters the equation...light drives photosynthesis (intensity and spectrum are important) but photosynthesis will slow if all the necessary nutrients are not available to the plants. When light is sufficient and all nutrients are present, plants will photosynthesize full out, until one of these is no longer sufficient. Algae is then able to take advantage.

There are only two species of fish that eat black brush algae (one is Siamese Algae Eater, the true species, the other I cannot remember) but they have specific requirements and are frankly unsuitable for most home aquaria. The only way to deal with any "problem" algae is to establish the light/nutrient balance for the plants. In tanks without plants, algae is not a "problem" as it is in planted tanks where it can smother and kill plants. Mollies are herbivorous but common green algae (and probably diatoms) are the algae they eat, or will eat. Same holds for otos and similar fish that "eat" algae. Fish are never the answer to problems.

The light may be a factor in all this. I don't know what the intensity is, nor the spectrum. The duration factors in but does not make up for insufficient intensity or inappropriate spectrum.