Angelfish and Cardinals

I have an approx 55 gallon tank with one medium sized Angelfish and around 15-20 Cardinal Tetras (risky I know). Anyway I’m looking to add some more angelfish and I’m debating adding either 2, 3 or 4 more Angelfish (3,4,5 total). I am tempted to add 4 more so as to disperse aggression but don’t want to over stock. Would 5 angels and 15-20 cardinals be overstocked? If so what would you do?

They should be fine together. Make sure that the tank is well planted, around 50% of the volume and get young fish that will grow up together. 4 or 5 will be fine

The tank is well planted but the angels I am looking to get are already reasonably big (4” or so) The reason being is a couple months ago I saw a tank of 5 all black Angelfish and loved them but only had space for 1. Now I want to go back and get the other 4?

In a 55 i would only add one more. While it is possible to have 5 angel coexist in harmony more often than not it won't work out. Exactly what happens depends on the sexes. The best chance to 5 well behaved angles is if they are all females. But if a pair form than there will be a lot of fighting. The female will kill other females and the male will drive away other males.

From what I understand, the Angels that are in my LFS were bought by a guy when they were very tiny and when they got to that size (4”) he returned them to the store. Since then they have all lived together in this tank. They must have been there for a good 3 months now. A couple of months ago I separated 1 from the group but now would like to go back and get the rest of them? Do these circumstances sound like it could work? Thanks

Cardinals are in danger if you buy them tiny. Adults are fine. I had to give the fish away for a move, but I recently had 2 very large wild caught angels in with 40+ 5 year old cardinals, and there was zero danger of predation.
Where the danger lies with angels is they can quickly make you get more than one tank. They are hard to sex with 100% accuracy, and if you get two males, yikes. But if the 5 were together, and 4 are still available, they might have sorted their social issues. A 55 is tight, but a lot depends on whether it's a 3 footer or a 4 footer. You should be fine.
I'll respectfully disagree with @anewbie and say with 2, you have a 50% chance of trouble. 4 is a low number, and I would go for the lot. Even if they fight, if they are evenly matched things will spread around.
But if mayhem breaks out (it could with two as well), then they have to be separated, and that means another tank.

Hi Gary, the Cardinals are fully grown adults and the tank is actually 4.5ft long. I am tempted to go for the lot, purely because I know they were raised together and are still alive to this day. If anything I want to get them out of the tiny, dingy, dark tank they are currently sat in at my LFS

GaryE said:

Cardinals are in danger if you buy them tiny. Adults are fine. I had to give the fish away for a move, but I recently had 2 very large wild caught angels in with 40+ 5 year old cardinals, and there was zero danger of predation.
Where the danger lies with angels is they can quickly make you get more than one tank. They are hard to sex with 100% accuracy, and if you get two males, yikes. But if the 5 were together, and 4 are still available, they might have sorted their social issues. A 55 is tight, but a lot depends on whether it's a 3 footer or a 4 footer. You should be fine.
I'll respectfully disagree with @anewbie and say with 2, you have a 50% chance of trouble. 4 is a low number, and I would go for the lot. Even if they fight, if they are evenly matched things will spread around.
But if mayhem breaks out (it could with two as well), then they have to be separated, and that means another tank.

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I had 4,5,8 and 10 angels in a 120 and none of the combinations worked once the angles reached about 2 years old. Yes the tank was well planted with lots of 100% hiding spots. If 100% males and 100% females they seem to work out their social issue and reach some sense of stability but with mix sexes when a pair form then there are serious issues. Naturally it comes down to specific fishes but i've tried mixing store brougth fishes and fishes i raised as frys.... so i am just presenting my experience. With 2 in a 55 there might be some bickering if 2 males but they should establish a pecking order and things should balance. With 5 males you will likely always have one (over time) that decides it can be the new alpha and try to work its way to the top of the pecking order. Mind you this is over the passage of time; you might reach stability for a few months at a time... but over several years they seem to always start fighting again.

Everyone says these are schooling fish though, so what are you saying? If you have tried everything and it hasn’t worked, are you saying people should just not to keep Angelfish?

I do not mean to be rude or offend anyone and @anewbie, this is not targeted at you but your answer made me think… I think people on this site need to be more open and helpful. Near enough every question I’ve ever asked has been met with “no this will never work, that will never work.” Rarely a helpful outcome is reached. Again I mean no disrespect or anything but the question was whether to add 1 more Angelfish or 4 more Angelfish and the answer is, in a way, “I’ve tried 2, 4, 8 etc. it doesn’t work. Don’t bother” This is not simply about this thread but I just think in general a lot of the answers I’ve received have done nothing but deterred me from this wonderful hobby and I can’t help but think the confusion and disheartening feeling others will feel when reading similar answers. Let’s try to encourage and uplift people who are in this shared hobby and if certain things are Impossible/Cruel/Animal Abuse then let’s kindly educate people

Oli said:

I do not mean to be rude or offend anyone and @anewbie, this is not targeted at you but your answer made me think… I think people on this site need to be more open and helpful. Near enough every question I’ve ever asked has been met with “no this will never work, that will never work.” Rarely a helpful outcome is reached. Again I mean no disrespect or anything but the question was whether to add 1 more Angelfish or 4 more Angelfish and the answer is, in a way, “I’ve tried 2, 4, 8 etc. it doesn’t work. Don’t bother” This is not simply about this thread but I just think in general a lot of the answers I’ve received have done nothing but deterred me from this wonderful hobby and I can’t help but think the confusion and disheartening feeling others will feel when reading similar answers. Let’s try to encourage and uplift people who are in this shared hobby and if certain things are Impossible/Cruel/Animal Abuse then let’s kindly educate people

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You can keep angels; just be prepare that they might fight a bit and if one is being beaten up it needs a place to hide. The most stable combination i've found are 1 and 2. You can try 5 but i think a 55 is a bit on the small side for so many. The males can get quite large but again this come down to individual fishes. Also when people talk about angels and their experience they also need to talk about the sex of the fishes they had together as that makes a big difference. This is my 120; the hiding places were in the two back corners.

Also remember that their behavior will change as they age. If they start young, reach maturity and then as they grow older. Again it depends a lot on the sexes of the fishes you have. Females don't like competing against other females but at least in my experience will not pick on males. Males don't love other males. Females are smaller but far more vicious in their fighting in my experience. Males are sort of I'm boss and if you accept that you can hang around while females are - this is my area get out period - however an unpaired female is not so vicious.

Angels aren't schooling fish, but they are sometimes shoaling fish. There's a difference. What angels do is live is large, loose groups until they pair off. At that point, they run all of their old crew off, seeing them as a danger to the fry.
You just have to be ready for that.
I've kept half a dozen different angel groups over the years, and there is always a bickering phase, and often a fatal fighting phase. It's why I say they often need more than one tank.
They can go a long time in relative peace, but if they pair, it gets dangerous fast. If you get attached to them, you save them rather than sell some. You can have a group, and probably should as they pick their mates, and are picky. But once they pair, the game changes.
I got myself a nice 65 because of angels fighting, as well as a 40 long. It's a great excuse.
By all means, keep angels. But just factor in they have their own ways, and they aren't always what we like. We can ask them to adapt to us, but they don't ever listen. It's on us as fishkeepers to make the adjustments if they become difficult for each other. In nature, they can just swim away. The glass walls are our doing...

What you @Oli are proposing is a significant risk and frankly not likely to work out well. To begin on some general information relaying to your posts #9 and #10...each species of fish lives in a very specific environment which includes not only obvious issues like water parameters, but the habitat (aquascape), numbers, behaviours, etc. We research the species' habitat to learn what may be required, and then do or best to provide as reasonably close to that environment. This is the only way to be assured (to whatever degree this is even possible, we are dealing with living creatures) that the fish will thrive and not maybe just survive.

Pterophyllum scalare is a shoaling fish. It lives in groups that are small compared to the groups of characins, but it is still a need recognized by the fish--it expects to be in a group because this is programmed into the genetics of the species. This plays out for the benefit of the species in the habitat, but in an aquarium there can be serious ramifications, and these are the reason so many aquarists have bad experiences, or completely fail with this fish. Within the group--which should never be fewer than five, and preferably more than this--an hierarchy will form. In the habitat there is plenty of space for this to play out naturally, but within the confines of even a relatively large aquarium (say 6+ feet/180 cm length minimum) things may not work out at all, depending upon the temperament of individual fish. A dominant male will view the aquarium as "his" space, period. Intruders will be shoved out of the way--and here is where the habitat/aquarium differences are so critical. In the habitat, the lesser fish can get out of the way, and move to their own spot, but in the aquarium they cannot escape. Not only the visual aspect, but the fish release communication chemicals called pheromones, and these warn others in the species. There is no escaping this continual threat and stress.

With that background, turning to your specific situation. As you have had one angelfish on its own for some months, the risk in adding any more is severe. And at four inches size, these are mature fish and they are not going to "change their spots" to suit us. One thing might work. Return the lone angelfish you have, and acquire a group of five or six from the store tank (do not include the one you now have in this new group). Depending upon how long the fish have been in that tank, the seeds of their pairings/hierarchy may be sown well enough to avoid serious issues. But there is no guarantee. You should also be able to identify males/females better. Another issue here is that this fish must select its mate and bond. Behaviours within the group may suggest such pairings, again depending.

Hi, might be a bit late but would like to say I have a uk 64 gall tank set up for 10 yrs +, with two external filters, 30 gall sump, and eheim reef 18w uv sterilizer, water change every 3 weeks, sump clean twice a year.
PH 7.5, Amonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0, GH 5 dkh, KH 9 dkh.
Stock 10 angels which of 3 pairs, 8 kribensis which 2 are females, 3 pairs Congo tetras, 3 zebra danios, 3 harlequins, 3 Neón tetras, 1 normal ancistrus, 2 super red ancistrus, 2 Snow White ancistrus, 1 Royal plec and 9 corydores. Quite a tank full,no plants, lots of driftwood, rocks and two Egyptian vases. Truthfully I do get the odd scrap/ argument but no more than brother and sister fall outs. I have plenty color and lots of swimming fishes.
The 3 pairs of angels all breed at seperate times, thank god all I do is move them to my breeding tank when they start cleaning up to lay eggs, the kribensis breed and the fry survive or get eaten.
But on a whole I have no difficulties or severe aggression what’s so ever, could be luck o just keeping them well fed on a good diet, which more or less is a bit of everything that they all eat in minutes.
Well hope this helps a little with the fact that you can overstock and keep them healthy and happy

Well guys, hate it or love it, I now have the original 5. Like I said, I saw 5 black Angels at my LFS a few months ago and added the 1 solo fish. As of today, I have gone back and bought the remaining 4 (raised from fry together) and so far all is well. Whether it works long term is another debate, but for now these Angelfish are definitely in a bigger, cleaner, more natural tank then they were and that can only be a good thing