Let the silent cycle commence!

TwoTankAmin said:

It appears as if the articles I wrote which explained ammonia toxicity is not longer on the site

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Your articles are still there. It was decided there were too many stickies in the cycling forum so instead there should be one thread giving a brief outline to all the methods and linking to them.
You'll find links to your fishless cycling and both fish-in cycling posts here

TwoTankAmin said:

Some Important Facts About Ammonia

Ammonia in water exists in two forms. NH3, which is the familiar nasty gas we know. Fish exhale NH3. Rotting organic matter will also create ammonia. This stuff is highly toxic and will definitely be harming fish by the time it reaches a concentration of .05 ppm (Some fish and inverts need even lower levels to be safe). However, most of the ammonia in water exists in the form of ammonium which is NH4. This is way less harmful. But in sufficient concentrations and/or exposure times, it causes external burns. The typical test kits we use measure Total Ammonia (TA) which is the sum of both NH3 and NH4.

Knowing how dangerous any level of TA might be requires that one know not only how much total ammonia there is but also how much of that total is in each form? The answer depends upon two other water parameters- pH and temperature. The higher the pH and/or temperature, the more of the TA that is in the toxic NH3 form. To calculate how much of the toxic NH3 form of ammonia requires that you know what the pH and temperature of your tank water are. Once you know all three numbers (total ammonia, pH and temperature) there is a formula for calculating how much of the total ammonia is in the form of NH3. It is way more complicated to use than most of us can handle. Fortunately, there are charts and tables available for this calculation. There is also currently a handy dandy ammonia calculator you can find here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.

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This is so helpful! Yes my aquarium uses an NH3 and NH4 Test kit(API). My pH is 6.8, temp 26, ammonia 0.15, these are my results.
NH3 Concentration: 0.0006ppm. Yay! Thanks @TwoTankAmin for this valuable info.

TwoTankAmin said:

Why are things as they are in your tank? It is the pants and the bacteria they have on them. Pants consume NH4 (ammonium) much faster than the bacyteria consume NH3 (ammonia). When the plants use the ammonium they do not produce any nitrite or nitrate in the water. While most plants prefer ammonium to nitrate, when there is not enough ammonia but there is nitrate, plants will use it. But they do so less efficient;y because they have to revers the process and turn it back to ammonia to use.

So the reason you are seeing 5 ppm ot nitrate is because the bacteria are still using some of the ammonia and that ends up as nitrate, however, your plants are getting all the ammonia they need at this time so they are not taking up the nitrate.

A silent cycle is defined as using plants (and the bacteria on them) to consume ammonia so it does not present a problem. this can mean you never get an ammonia reading or you get a very low one for a short time. However, it differs from a normal fishless cycle because one adds fish over time in the oplanted tank but you can add a full stocking level to a tank cycled without fish.

Doing a partial fishless cycle when plants are involved changes how things work and therefore how one does things. For one, lower levels of ammonia are used.

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Thanks for the info!

WAIT.... I used the ammonia calculator to see how much the ammonia on my test kit had to be to harm fish. The answer was 12.5 PPM. That's a lot, considering the API test kit only measures to 8ppm.
Here's a video of the fish (if it works lol)

Remember that if you catch up with cycling that 12ppm ammonia could become 50ppm nitrite..... which will not be safe. An acid tank will more than likely do that slowly or not at all ofc. So you still want to be dumping the nitrogen out in water changes or plant trimmings ultimately.

See, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, especially if you fo not read it all.

Under no circumtances should 12.5 ppm of Total Ammonia, no matter how little is NH3, be considered safe for any amount of time.

I clearly wrote that I felt the max TA that is safe for any length of time is about 2 ppm. NH4 is way less harmless than NH3. But is not completely harmless in any amount for any amount of time.

Bear in mind we are talking about cycling a tank. This is usually a 5 to 6 week process. Read the article on doing a fishless cycle and you will see that the amount of ammonia going in is not a lot and it is over time. The levels in the tank will never reach 12.5 ppm. In fact they will not even get close to 5 ppm.

I designed that fishless cycling process to be about as fool-proof as possible if it is followed closely. I know how to calculate how much nitrite any given amount of ammonia could create. I know that most test kits cannot measure nitrite at 16.5 ppm (on the Total ion scale) which is where the cycle goes off the rails. The red line for ammonia levels derailing a cycle is 6.4 ppm on the Total Ion scale. You will colonize the wrong bacteria which cannot thrive at the lower levels created in a tank.

Finally, the absolute key to a successful cycling is being able to control how much ammonia goes in or is created and when. With a fishless cycle this is easy and simple to manage. If you are willing to spend some extra money, you can get Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride and 4 drops/gallon will yield 2 ppm of ammonia on the nitrogen scale or 2,56 ppm on the Total ion scale. Using that with the article here you would substitute 2.56 ppm as your ammonia addition and leave all the other number whre they are in the article.

If you are a nut like me who over the years put up and taken down about 12-15 tanks a year for the past 15 years, you will end up buying this.

Please do not buy this as it is enough to cycle many tanks. I cycled 13 cubefilters to be used in 6 tanks holding 190 gals in one 40B tank and my average dose was about 1.25 grams. So that 500 gm. jug is enough to cycle about 400 x 30 gal. tanks or 24 x 500 gal. tank.

I doesnt matter if one adds ammonia or ammonium to a tank. It will turn into whatever the pH and temp. dictates.

Am I underfeeding my fish or is it just the fish being greedy?
ok so, today when I did my water change they nibbled at the siphon. I was afraid they were very hungry, so I fed them a pinch after that. they never eat any food that has already landed on the sand bed. But they have never poked the siphon like this. I feed them a pinch 2 times a day. So, am underfeeding my fish?

Fish are naturally curious...especially with huge (to them) things intrude on their home.....a quick taste to check if its alive or will bite back....normal behaviour really. My fish never leave my hands, gloves, jug etc alone on maintenance days. One of my Danio's plays silly b's by jumping in and out of the jug when I am taking water out (being a pain in the behind, but he thinks its playtime)

Just to add as well for most freshwater species under feeding would definitely be preferable to over feeding.

Just a question: Would it be ok to add my fish to my 55g now? There's a lot of plants and since a few fish in a big tank, less ammonia right?
If the answer is yes, I will move them in tomorrow. If no, then it's fine by me.
A pic of my 55g tank...
I might sound really impatient, but I want to give my fish more swimming space.
I also have some bottled beneficial bacteria that I can add to the HOB.

Animallover😍 said:

Just a question: Would it be ok to add my fish to my 55g now? There's a lot of plants and since a few fish in a big tank, less ammonia right?
If the answer is yes, I will move them in tomorrow. If no, then it's fine by me.
A pic of my 55g tank...
I might sound really impatient, but I want to give my fish more swimming space.
I also have some bottled beneficial bacteria that I can add to the HOB.
View attachment 144456

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What are the water conditions and can you put some more plants in, perhaps around the back and sides of the tank?
If you look at your image, you'll see that your substrate has lots of hollows.
Each one of these will be a pocket of waste, once you put fish in there, making vacuuming the substrate a bit of a nightmare.
If you made a gentle slope in the substrate, from the back to to front and down to just one corner at the front of the tank, then the waste should flow down to that point and be easier to remove.

Perhaps you could look at this thread again.

Yes today I am taking out all the plants so I can work on my substrate. I thought it would be a lot of work but definitely worth it. I checked out a new fish store that has Black neon tetras, the other one didn't. This is a typical malaysian pet shop, but usually pet shops don't care about fish care. However the tanks were all 10g and sump tanks, they had a huge tank full of oscars too. I like their products, very cheap! I bought hornwort online for RM 5, it was a tiny piece, but here I bought a very big healthy piece of hornwort for RM 3!!! Thanks you so much for the thread, yup Imma go watch youtube .

Seachem Prime arrived today! Good thing too coz Nutrafin Aqua+ was running out.
I will send a pic of my 55g, wonder if it's ready to put the tetras in. Or maybe, should I add my tetras to the big tank when I get the new fish?

Have been testing and done necessary water changes, I will get the fish in a week, it's been 2.
Today's test results
pH: 7
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
So far so good.
My remaining 5 fish are healthy and active.
I'm planning to start an artemia culture, an infusoria culture, a daphnia culture, and microworm culture.

It's been 2 weeks and 5 days, can I add my tetras to my 55g tomorrow and get the next 3 or 6 fish the day after?
I'm very disappointed @itiwhetu because I found out the book( The Living Aquarium) only ships to UK and US!
This is the main problem living here. I can't get certain products that will be very helpful.
Btw, the 'runt' (the thin tetra) can't be distinguished from the others. They are happy and healthy. I fasted them yesterday(can't hurt). So far so good(except for algae in 55g)
Try to spot all 5 fish!