Bolivian Ram Sexing

I think the two fish are young males, just let themselves to sort things out rams are usually fine together. Just make sure you have a good cave net work and heaps of plants to give the individual fish protection from each other.
Here's the tank.
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There's a cave on the left and a swim thru cave on the right (this is where the small ram is hiding). This is about 3-4 weeks ago. The cabomba and wisteria are taller now.

*Edit* This was when they would hang out together, as you can see.
 
Fantastic tank, perfect for Rams. You should have no problems, just let them do their thing. In this tank I would be looking at keeping 4 Rams. You will then get a pair. Remember that when these fish breed they are more concerned with their fry than expanding their territory, so if a pair spawns things often settle down for a while.
 
Fantastic tank, perfect for Rams. You should have no problems, just let them do their thing. In this tank I would be looking at keeping 4 Rams. You will then get a pair. Remember that when these fish breed they are more concerned with their fry than expanding their territory, so if a pair spawns things often settle down for a while.
To be clear, they aren't the only inhabitants. Current stock...
2 bolivians
1 pictus cat
1 bn pleco
7 black phantom tetras
2 diamond tetras (there were 7 pre-dating the bpt but lost 5 to mouth rot)
1 horned nerite

I was hoping for a pairing, but have arrangements for rehoming one if it were 2 males. Just don't want them to tear each other up too bad.
 
My biggest concern in your tank would be the pictus cat, they are notorious for cruising at night not letting anything else sleep. I would be surprised if your Rams rip themselves to bits in this tank, but stranger things have happened you just have to make your best judgement call day by day.
 
Here's a couple pics of the larger ram. He's eating and acting fine, but you can see his tail has taken some damage. Also a little damage at the rear of the dorsal.
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From that angle that looks like a female you can see the vent. Is this fish deeper in the body than the other fish.
 
I agree that the ram pictured in the two photos in post #15 is female.

There is still the possibility this problem is due to the pictus who is frustrated at being alone and thus even more likely to "strike out" after dark. But the two rams themselves are also likely to be the issue. I've said all this before, nothing has changed, except the photos now show clear evidence of physical aggression from someone.
 
I agree that the ram pictured in the two photos in post #15 is female.

There is still the possibility this problem is due to the pictus who is frustrated at being alone and thus even more likely to "strike out" after dark. But the two rams themselves are also likely to be the issue. I've said all this before, nothing has changed, except the photos now show clear evidence of physical aggression from someone.
So you recommend removing one of the bolivians? Or rehome all but the pictus?
 
So you recommend removing one of the bolivians? Or rehome all but the pictus?

I'd really like to be able to see how the rams interact. I am only going from your descriptions. But I'll say as I said before, any two rams will not generally get along for very long before they have a disagreement. This is in the genetic makeup of the species. You can sometimes luck out, but more often not. The large ram in the photos is probably female [looking back, I suggested both were females in post #2 and I do not waver from that], and if the other smaller ram is also female, everything you have described in this thread is standard, what I would have expected. If the smaller is male, same holds, they may get along or they may not, and it can go back and forth.

The pictus is an issue, possibly the culprit here or possibly not if it is the rams. But pictus must have a group of 5 or more, and at least a 4-foot tank. This is just to keep the pictus healthy; these needs too are programmed into the species DNA and they must be provided for the long-term well-being of the fish. Denying a fish what it "expects" never works; sometimes (most often according to studies) the fish becomes more aggressive out of frustration, but sometimes the opposite can occur and the poor fish becomes weaker and weaker due to the stress of being forced to cope with an environment it does not expect, or more precisely, through not being provided with what it does expect, a group to socialize within the hierarchy that will establish.
 
I'd really like to be able to see how the rams interact. I am only going from your descriptions. But I'll say as I said before, any two rams will not generally get along for very long before they have a disagreement. This is in the genetic makeup of the species. You can sometimes luck out, but more often not. The large ram in the photos is probably female [looking back, I suggested both were females in post #2 and I do not waver from that], and if the other smaller ram is also female, everything you have described in this thread is standard, what I would have expected. If the smaller is male, same holds, they may get along or they may not, and it can go back and forth.

The pictus is an issue, possibly the culprit here or possibly not if it is the rams. But pictus must have a group of 5 or more, and at least a 4-foot tank. This is just to keep the pictus healthy; these needs too are programmed into the species DNA and they must be provided for the long-term well-being of the fish. Denying a fish what it "expects" never works; sometimes (most often according to studies) the fish becomes more aggressive out of frustration, but sometimes the opposite can occur and the poor fish becomes weaker and weaker due to the stress of being forced to cope with an environment it does not expect, or more precisely, through not being provided with what it does expect, a group to socialize within the hierarchy that will establish.
As stated, I can rehome one of the rams, if that is the recommendation.
The pictus is my son's. I will rehome all fish before that one. It is about 7mths old. I plan to upgrade to at least a 75g after new years and can address a shoal for him then.
So... Rehome a ram? Rehome all except the pictus? Leave it go? What is the recommendation for right now?
 
As stated, I can rehome one of the rams, if that is the recommendation.
The pictus is my son's. I will rehome all fish before that one. It is about 7mths old. I plan to upgrade to at least a 75g after new years and can address a shoal for him then.
So... Rehome a ram? Rehome all except the pictus? Leave it go? What is the recommendation for right now?

Understood, but I have already explained the issues and how to resolve them for the well-being of the fish. :fish:
 
Understood, but I have already explained the issues and how to resolve them for the well-being of the fish. :fish:
Maybe I've missed something. You've explained that the rams may be the issue. You've also stated the pictus may be the issue and what it needs (more and bigger tank). I understand your stance on the pictus and I do intend to address it in the near future. (Believe me, I wish I had been there to stop that purchase, but I wasn't and this is what I have now.)
I'm asking for your personal opinion. Given the options I have stated, what would you do in this situation? It may not be the perfect solution, but the best for the current circumstances.
 
Maybe I've missed something. You've explained that the rams may be the issue. You've also stated the pictus may be the issue and what it needs (more and bigger tank). I understand your stance on the pictus and I do intend to address it in the near future. (Believe me, I wish I had been there to stop that purchase, but I wasn't and this is what I have now.)
I'm asking for your personal opinion. Given the options I have stated, what would you do in this situation? It may not be the perfect solution, but the best for the current circumstances.

OK. I don't like telling or even suggesting to members that they get rid of this or that fish, so I generally note the issues and leave it to them. Once one has the fish, one is in a very different position compared to someone asking in advance. Though not everyone will listen to seasoned advice no matter. Thank you for wanting to know/learn. And I will always do my best to assist such members, it is why I am here.

The pictus may or may not be the problem, there really is no way to know unless it is seen. It is certainly a possibility. The rams should probably be separated, but I would want to see their interaction if it were me. But solely on the basis of my knowledge of these two species, I would presume the two rams to be the issue, not the pictus. Just understand this is surmise from knowing these two species' inherent traits.

If the rams could be separated, that would possibly make it more obvious if the pictus is or is not involved. I would suggest that one of these rams is not going to last long, and it is likely the one in hiding, if the issue is between them.

A few years ago, before I had learned of the natural behaviours of this species. I had a beautiful male Bolivian Ram in my 5-foot 115g Amazonian river tank, and had him for a couple of years when I decided to try and find a female. Eventually a local store received a shipment of Bolivians that were clearly in very good health and condition, so I stood in front of the tank and after several minutes identified a lovely female, and I acquired her. When introduced to my tank with the male, they found each other after a few few minutes. There was some lovely displaying, and I though all was well. They even spawned four times. But looking back with the benefit of hindsight and knowledge, at their back-and-forth interactions, when one spawning the female took charge (as expected), but at the second the male fiercely attacked and drove her away and tended the eggs himself (not expected), and between spawnings it was fierce male one day, and fierce female the next...clearly the pair did not bond. Two more spawnings, then overnight the male killed the female. And this was in a comparatively large tank, very heavily planted. We just cannot assume nature is going to change; species are the way they are because that is how they evolved. Sometimes we can affect things, though usually this is more negative than positive in the end; but fish are the way they are for good reason, and we will have better luck if we understand that and accept it. After all, nothing less is really kind and humane to the fish.

Does this help at all?
 
OK. I don't like telling or even suggesting to members that they get rid of this or that fish, so I generally note the issues and leave it to them. Once one has the fish, one is in a very different position compared to someone asking in advance. Though not everyone will listen to seasoned advice no matter. Thank you for wanting to know/learn. And I will always do my best to assist such members, it is why I am here.

The pictus may or may not be the problem, there really is no way to know unless it is seen. It is certainly a possibility. The rams should probably be separated, but I would want to see their interaction if it were me. But solely on the basis of my knowledge of these two species, I would presume the two rams to be the issue, not the pictus. Just understand this is surmise from knowing these two species' inherent traits.

If the rams could be separated, that would possibly make it more obvious if the pictus is or is not involved. I would suggest that one of these rams is not going to last long, and it is likely the one in hiding, if the issue is between them.

A few years ago, before I had learned of the natural behaviours of this species. I had a beautiful male Bolivian Ram in my 5-foot 115g Amazonian river tank, and had him for a couple of years when I decided to try and find a female. Eventually a local store received a shipment of Bolivians that were clearly in very good health and condition, so I stood in front of the tank and after several minutes identified a lovely female, and I acquired her. When introduced to my tank with the male, they found each other after a few few minutes. There was some lovely displaying, and I though all was well. They even spawned four times. But looking back with the benefit of hindsight and knowledge, at their back-and-forth interactions, when one spawning the female took charge (as expected), but at the second the male fiercely attacked and drove her away and tended the eggs himself (not expected), and between spawnings it was fierce male one day, and fierce female the next...clearly the pair did not bond. Two more spawnings, then overnight the male killed the female. And this was in a comparatively large tank, very heavily planted. We just cannot assume nature is going to change; species are the way they are because that is how they evolved. Sometimes we can affect things, though usually this is more negative than positive in the end; but fish are the way they are for good reason, and we will have better luck if we understand that and accept it. After all, nothing less is really kind and humane to the fish.

Does this help at all?
It does, thank you! Know that when I ask for an opinion, I do want whomever's opinion on the situation. I will weigh that opinion and decide whether or not to follow, but the final decision is mine and I would never hold the outcome against the other member. I ask because I value the opinion.
And I would try to get you a vid on here, but honestly I haven't seen them around each other in over a week. As soon as I enter the room the larger comes to the glass and the smaller stays in a cave. Even at feeding, the smaller stays behind the rocks away from everyone.
I will move the smaller ram to QT for now and look for changes. Before purchasing the rams I did secure a new home for one if need be (coworker with a 90g) so I've been as prepared as can be to remove one.
 
Just an update... the smaller ram was moved to a QT and a week later rehomed to a co-worker. The remaining ram has since been doing quite well. Damage to both the tail and dorsal has healed and completely regrown. She looks great!
(Also, it was reported to me that the other ram is adjusting well to her new home)​
 

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