Cycle started off well, now.. not so well

Hi all

I started out my tank as a fishless cycle that clearly is the preferred option by the forum users as per the cycling guide post. Got ammonia hydroxide 10%, put a little in my tank. First mistake was not using the ammonia calculator, put a little too much so then had to do a bunch of water changes. After a week and a half Ammonia was highly reduced and I was optimistic so I did a bunch of water changes, and brought in a couple red rosy minnows. I know that the guide says fishless cycling should take 4-6 weeks but I guess I decided I'm not worried about doing it quicker but doing it so that its fully setup for fish - and I wasn't doing the best with the 'snack' dosages of ammonia, etc. Fish did fine for a week but then on Sunday I tested nitrite levels pretty high and, perhaps more confusing nitrate levels really high. I was somewhat surprised to see the nitrate already peaking so soon, but either way I had one little minnow die on me so I wanted to decrease the nitrate so as to not stress out the others. Well, mistake number two, I did way too much water changes - I tested inbetween like two or three times, but after the last testing it was still kinda high and I was a little frustrated so I did a big water change, this time with a hose straight to the sink using one of those adapters python sells. Well something there really stressed them all out and the remaining couple minnows died on me I was pretty upset that I couldn't keep them and since have been too busy and a little discouraged from reinstating the cycle.

I figure the last large water change was what really stressed them out. I switched to the sink instead of using my other gravel pump-hose and bucket because I had already been there like 1h 30 min doing water changes and the python method was less effort, and less messy. However, now I'm worried that something of that method altogether is a problem. I.e. like the water dechlorinator, even if applied immediately during or after the repumping of water from sink, doesn't become effective fast enough as opposed to letting it sit in a bucket first for 5 minutes beforehand or the water temperature was really off. As for the last one, I wasn't too concerned when I did the change as these are minnows so they can tolerate colder water (even though I have a heater in there with them set at 76) and even then I still did put it to sort of lukewarm-cool. I know this will have to be much more exact with other fish. I have obtained a larger tank than the current 18 gallons I'm working with, my new tank is 36 gallons so that should help on that front too.

Any tips on this? anyone have issues changing from bucket pumping to a python?

You should have waited until the bacteria could clear 3 ppm ammonia to zero ammonia and zero nitrite in 24 hours.

Nitrate testers also measure nitrite so you need to wait until nitrite drops to zero to get an accurate nitrate result.

When nitrite is higher than zero, you do need to do a water change. With 18 gallons, doing a water change with a bucket shouldn't take very long. I use a bucket for water changes on a 48 gallon tank and add dechlorinator to the bucket at the dose rate for the volume of the bucket. And I use boiling water from a kettle to warm the new water.

If you move everything over to the new tank - substrate, decor, filter and fish - the larger volume of water means it will take a bit longer for nitrite to build up; but if nitrite gets high in the 18 gallon, it will still go up pretty fast in the new tank so you'll still need to do daily water changes. Using all new water in the new tank will reset nitrite to zero, so you'll only need to stop it going up rather than start off with it high and try to get it down.



I don't suppose the shop will take the fish back, then you can continue with the fishless cycle?

Get yourself a bottle of seachem prime and use it with the water changes to detoxify any nitrite or ammonia until the cycle finishes otherwise you’re going to lose the lot.

Anthony1976 said:

Get yourself a bottle of seachem prime and use it with the water changes to detoxify any nitrite or ammonia until the cycle finishes otherwise you’re going to lose the lot.

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Prime detoxifies ammonia and nitrite for around 24 hours and will keep your fish safe between daily water changes. But the water changes still need to be done before the ammonia & nitrite "undetoxify"

essjay said:

Prime detoxifies ammonia and nitrite for around 24 hours and will keep your fish safe between daily water changes. But the water changes still need to be done before the ammonia & nitrite "undetoxify"

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Yes that’s why I said to use it with water changes lol

Sorry, I just wanted to add to your post to say why the water changes still needed to be done because the effect wears off in 24 hours

essjay said:

Sorry, I just wanted to add to your post to say why the water changes still needed to be done because the effect wears off in 24 hours

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Ah right , thought that’s what you meant but wasn’t sure thanks for clarifying. I’m uste to being put right by my wife so no worries lol

Hi guys thanks for the input and sorry for not getting back sooner. I did take back the rosy reds that did not perish, luckily the store did take them back (petsmart) which was interesting to know considering I have since visited all the LFS stores and they all said they could not and would not take fish back after sale. This was back when I posted.
After that I gravel pumped, dosed <1 ml ammonia hydroxide 10% and the next day tested, ammonia was at pretty much 0 but nitrite was real high. Seems the Nitrosomonas sp. colonies are at full force but not the nitrospira sp. colonies, as the high nitrite levels have remained. I should mention that I used top fin brand nitrifying bacteria starter, and very quickly noticed the same thing happen back then before having gotten the fishes. I know many users on the forums are skeptical, dismissive or even altogether look down upon these type of products, but I wanted to try it just to see, so anyways got the cheapest one which was the topfin brand. No better way to learn a skill/trade/hobby than first hand. But anyways if it worked for the nitrosomonas sp. bacteria I'm sure theres another brand, higher end product that is likely to work for the nitrospira sp. bacteria right? Otherwise I've just been waiting for a while for nitrite to drop but its not really happening.

How high is the nitrite? I not certain but I think growth can stall if it is too high. In any event the nitrobacter takes much longer to establish than nitrosomonas. And it is possible that your starter culture contained a viable colony of one and not the other.

agusf said:

Hi guys thanks for the input and sorry for not getting back sooner. I did take back the rosy reds that did not perish, luckily the store did take them back (petsmart) which was interesting to know considering I have since visited all the LFS stores and they all said they could not and would not take fish back after sale. This was back when I posted.
After that I gravel pumped, dosed <1 ml ammonia hydroxide 10% and the next day tested, ammonia was at pretty much 0 but nitrite was real high. Seems the Nitrosomonas sp. colonies are at full force but not the nitrospira sp. colonies, as the high nitrite levels have remained. I should mention that I used top fin brand nitrifying bacteria starter, and very quickly noticed the same thing happen back then before having gotten the fishes. I know many users on the forums are skeptical, dismissive or even altogether look down upon these type of products, but I wanted to try it just to see, so anyways got the cheapest one which was the topfin brand. No better way to learn a skill/trade/hobby than first hand. But anyways if it worked for the nitrosomonas sp. bacteria I'm sure theres another brand, higher end product that is likely to work for the nitrospira sp. bacteria right? Otherwise I've just been waiting for a while for nitrite to drop but its not really happening.

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Could you not possibly get some seeded media from the fish shop or from a friends filter?

Hi, I don't Know if you want this tank planted. But all I do to cycle a tank is, put a natural base in it plant it to about 30% of its volume set the filters going, lights on a timer 10 hours per day. In 10 -14 days the plants will be growing add fish. A few at a time, the number of fish you can add depends on the capacity of the tank. But usually 3-4 the first time, wait two weeks 3-4, etc.

Nitrate Seems to be around .50 ppm. Also the ph tested much higher than usual, my local tap water previously has tested for me for around 7.5 but this time it came to 8.2.

Anthony1976 said:

Could you not possibly get some seeded media from the fish shop or from a friends filter?

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haha not likely don't happen to have any friends with aquariums in the area. I'll ask next time I'm at a fish store but.. not counting on it

itiwhetu said:

Hi, I don't Know if you want this tank planted. But all I do to cycle a tank is, put a natural base in it plant it to about 30% of its volume set the filters going, lights on a timer 10 hours per day. In 10 -14 days the plants will be growing add fish. A few at a time, the number of fish you can add depends on the capacity of the tank. But usually 3-4 the first time, wait two weeks 3-4, etc.

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I'm getting the sense that cycling a true planted tank is a completely different thing... well I guess from what I've gathered I don't want an 'aquarium garden' where the primary focus are plants and not fish so probably light planting with respect to that.