Total rehash

I have had enough with one of my tanks. It's always been swamped with hair algae which re-appears in no time at all, despite regular cleaning and large water changes. I take out and bleach the plants that have become little more than green streamers with long blossoms of algae, likewise all the other movable stuff. It has a large piece of bogwood which also gets a good scrubbing with a wire brush. This is in the centre to sort of split the swimming area into a left and right to keep potentially battling species apart. I have an external Oscillaris filter and also I have had a sponge filter in a rear corner and also another filter alongside internally to try to keep on top of things. They all gunge up pretty quickly. I squeeze clean every couple of weeks on the internal filters and do the external whenever the flow from the input pipe is noticeably slow.

Most plants die quickly, or grow very slowly with a couple of exceptions. The substrate was sand with a fine grain.
Water is very hard here, something I have recently discovered to my horror. I mean in the order of 22PH. I have seen reference to hard water being something that hair algae thrives in so that might explain things a bit. I might add that there is no direct daylight in the room. The room has no windows and the only natural light is from the kitchen to the rear of the study where the tank is located. The artificial lighting is the standard Aqua One that came with the tank. I do have a few snails but only about a dozen or so. They aren't increasing in any numbers so don't point to overfeeding as the algae problem.

Current inhabitants are the leftovers of larger numbers. These are a pair of Kribs which reside in a clay tunnel in the right of the tank, a pair of Firemouth, now fully grown and who are exhibiting breeding behaviour, a single Pearl Gourami also fully grown but sadly no mate as I think the male Firemouth saw him off, a single GBR who has never had a partner, a single Golden Ram which was bought as a pair and who has become the single survivor, a single Green Tiger Barb who wanders around alone hanging head down, he is the survivor of a group of 6 from mid 2018, 4 of the Striata Loach as they are a social fish that needs companions, and 2 Bristlenose which are starting to get a bit on the big size but have shown no breeding behaviour. They may not be a true pair anyway. There are so many battles. The Kribs hate the Firemouths and the GBR, The Firemouth Male hates them back and also flares at and fights with the Pearl Gouram and GBR. The GBR chases the Golden Ram. It's like watching a MAGA march with BLM onlookers. I also have a pair of Dwarf Gouramis that I moved into another tank that I would like to bring back. They were showing breeding signs and weren't getting any peace in this tank.

The lump of bogwood has hollows under the base, sort of tunnels that the Striatas and Bristlenoses inhabit.

On Thursday I did a complete overhaul of the tank.Everything was taken out. I changed the substrate to black Hugo Kamishi 4mm size granules. I Squeeze cleaned the internal sponge filter and removed the other internal altogether. I changed the filter wool in the external but left everything else to maintain the biologically good bacteria.
I threw out the plants and scrubbed the bogwood once more. In fact I bleached it first then let it stand overnight in fresh water. The whole plumbing was dismantled and given a good going over to remove as much green as possible inside and outside the tubes.
I have bought some plants and will be getting more today to put in. I have also set up a CO2 system at 1 bubble a second to give nutrition to the plants. Is there any way to check the CO2 content of the water, by the way?

Due to the potential of chemical spikes with the overhaul I'm doing daily checks and will change water as often as needed to keep things under control.
What I want to do now is sort out the inhabitants to the best effect. My LFS will take whatever I don't want for store credit so I can at least move some stock to them. Where do I go from here then?

The water hardness is the major problem I see and can probably account for many lost fish in the past. I would like a busy tank. Not overly stocked and not with fish that grow to any great size, but smaller and active. I am open to suggestions.

Hi wow lots goin on here!

So first of all, what size is your tank? You have a real mix of fish in there so glad you are open to the idea of moving stock around. I think once we know the size we can work something out.

Just wanted to pick up on your plants and the Co2 situation as I'm not sure this is the best route for you. Co2 only works if you balance it against lighting and fertilisers otherwise you could get more algae again. With Co2 its usually a good idea to go for high end lighting like Chihiros, Kessil or Twinstar and an active substrate like aquarium soil with a liquid fertiliser.

When ever you use Co2 you need to have a drop checker which indicates the level of Co2 in the tank I'd recommend getting one asap as too much Co2 can kill fish very quickly. Co2 also isnt too great for cichlids as cichlids dig a lot so its best to go low tech with them and put easy to grow plants in, root tabs, basic but good lighting and a liquid fert too.

Lets work out your tank size and fish first then come back to plants ans Co2

Wills

Did you replace all the water and wash the tank out?
If not, you might find it comes back. Filamentous algae leaves spores in the tank and they can recolonise new plants and ornaments.

If you move the plants into a separate container, you can put a heap of algicide in with them to kill the algae, then wash the plants well and put them in a clean tank. You can also use bleach and give the plants a 5 minute bath in straight bleach to kill algae.

Colin_T said:

Did you replace all the water and wash the tank out?
If not, you might find it comes back. Filamentous algae leaves spores in the tank and they can recolonise new plants and ornaments.

If you move the plants into a separate container, you can put a heap of algicide in with them to kill the algae, then wash the plants well and put them in a clean tank. You can also use bleach and give the plants a 5 minute bath in straight bleach to kill algae.

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Yeah, I did a thorough clean with bleach, both in the tank and all the plants, wood etc and replaced all the substrate. I'll be watching for any signs of it appearing again though.
Tank size is 120 Ltrs and measures (in water depth etc) at 30" x 16" front to back and 14" deep from the substrate level.

Ah ok, I was hoping it was a little bigger than that - to your credit the fish look really healthy though! On paper your mix of fish is probably not going to work and I think you have seen that in the fighting and the deaths of some of the fish. The amount of fish that have potential to grow to 5-6 inch or more would eventually mean your tank would be over stocked and you wouldnt be able to keep on top of water quality. Inch per gallon is a very rough guide we can use to quickly tot up capacity and your current stock gets to 58 inches in 30 gallons, you also need to consider you have 6 cichlids and a gourami who all want territory as you have described these will encroach on each other.

With such hard water I am really stunned at how good your soft water fish look! Rams are notoriously hard to keep even in neutral water and usually need soft water - how long have you had them? The only real hard water fish you have in there are your Fire Mouths but I think technically it is probably too hard even for them.

With water like that I think your best options would be something like a Rainbow Fish and Rasbora Tank with a mix of Rummy Nose Rasbora, Celestial Pearl Danios, Dwarf Neon Rainbow Fish or Shell Dweller Cichlids which would be quite a different kind of tank but very cool!

Wills

Wills said:

Ah ok, I was hoping it was a little bigger than that - to your credit the fish look really healthy though! On paper your mix of fish is probably not going to work and I think you have seen that in the fighting and the deaths of some of the fish. The amount of fish that have potential to grow to 5-6 inch or more would eventually mean your tank would be over stocked and you wouldnt be able to keep on top of water quality. Inch per gallon is a very rough guide we can use to quickly tot up capacity and your current stock gets to 58 inches in 30 gallons, you also need to consider you have 6 cichlids and a gourami who all want territory as you have described these will encroach on each other.

With such hard water I am really stunned at how good your soft water fish look! Rams are notoriously hard to keep even in neutral water and usually need soft water - how long have you had them? The only real hard water fish you have in there are your Fire Mouths but I think technically it is probably too hard even for them.

With water like that I think your best options would be something like a Rainbow Fish and Rasbora Tank with a mix of Rummy Nose Rasbora, Celestial Pearl Danios, Dwarf Neon Rainbow Fish or Shell Dweller Cichlids which would be quite a different kind of tank but very cool!

Wills

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I wish it was bigger, at least a 4' width tank. More stock choices for that with plenty of room for a mix of small and smallish. Like my 4' nano fish tank.
So, here's the thing. I bought a bagful of duckweed. Lovely and healthy when it arrived. It's now mostly beyond saving in that tank. I have moved some of it to my upstairs nano fish tank and some regeneration has resulted. The difference? Well for a start that tank has no hair algae. It also has a newer light with a basic timer to switch it to blue in the early evening then off an hour later and full lights again in the morning. I can't say it's any brighter than the one on my tank I'm doing up. The pictures on this thread show the lights on and that picture was taken early this morning before full daybreak.
The problem is that the Aqua One comes with a lid with the light in a separate centre strip that clips into the lids either side of it. So a new light means that I do away with the lid. Is there any that comes to mind that can be fitted under the lid which has about 2" clearance to the top of the water?
I don't want to leave the top open as it isn't as "pretty" on the eye and fish could potentially decide to go for a walk-about.

All of the fish there are at least 6 months old and most a good bit longer up to 2 and half years.
Now, I know, REALLY I KNOW, that impulse buying isn't a good thing BUT I have just been over to my LFS and bought more plants to adorn that tank and add to the ones in my nano fish tank. While I was there guess what I saw? The very fish that I have fancied since I first saw them. The Asian Rummynose. I got half a dozen of these. 2 male and 4 female ( I hope)



The new plants will give them places to hide if needed, until I make my mind up on what to do with the other fish. I also saw the Purple Emperor Tetra which looks remarkable. I first noticed these a couple of years ago and asked my LFS about them but he couldn't help. Well the other LFS I visited today has them in stock. I was sorely tempted but the water requirements look less than ideal for my own supply. Simply lovely nevertheless.



So, onto the lights again. Best options if any for some that will go under the lid please.

It depends on what you want to do with the tank as you need to choose between high tech planted tank or mixed community without Co2?

Wills

I'm looking at a community tank, planted sufficiently to give the correct environmental setup for the fish, as near as possible.
The largest fish would still have to be sociable, and in fact the dwarf gouramis may well do for that.
The Asian Rummynose goes to 35mm maximum and with 6 of these will need some others to show the tank off.
I expect that I'll be keeping the Striatas and perhaps a single bristelnose until gets larger when I'll need to sell it on.
I'm thinking perhaps another shoaling or school fish of up to around 45-50mm brightly coloured and not very deep bodied. I have already taken out 3 Columbian Blue Tetras as they got a little imposing and well. uninteresting.

Cool ok that makes sense Rather than Dwarf Gourami I would keep your Pearl Gourami they are really stunning and do well in your hard water check out this profile here - https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trichopodus-leerii/

What about getting more of the rummy nose and the striatus loches? I really like tanks with big schools and not many species they can look really nice because of the simplicity and your schooling fish will show really natural behaviour. An other option for the tank could be Dwarf Neon Rainbows? Might be too similar to the Columbians though?

In terms of the set up that you will need for a high tech planted tank you will definitely need to be adding in root tabs to your sand I like tropica brand fertilisers but there are others around you also need to be adding daily fertilisers again I like the tropica one but other people use others.

I'd recommend checking out these youtube channels as they can give you way more info than I can and these are what I have been learning from over the last few months about high tech planted tanks.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC210QPUiYoCjm9IEuu5SHLQ
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1xredHso_O0RzeYMacGgyg

Check out the beginner videos they have put together and they explain it really well. I really like George Farmers approach with his choice of plants they are all really easy to grow and since I have adopted it I've had much better success.

In terms of your light can you show us a picture of how it clips in? Would you be able to rest a light inside the lid? There are some lights that come with fittings so you can screw them into the lid would that be ok? Or I have seen some guides for DIY methods with cable ties etc?

Wills

I'll work on getting pictures of the existing lights and take a read of the other articles on the links.
I have a bottle of Easy-Life Easycarbo fertiliser that I started using a few days ago. Is that good enough? I actually stopped using it after the tank cleanse and put a CO2 stream into the tank.

Fish....
Sat and watched them this morning for a good 2 hours. The new Rummynose seemed stressed and in fact it looks like one has gone the way of a Krib barbecue. Only 5 of them today with no floater to be seen. I think they need more company to reduce their stress levels.
The Kribs do seem to the biggest problem. They don't have any fry to watch out for right now, though the female has coloured up and has got a bit fatter so maybe there's a load of eggs in their tunnel. However I'm quite certain that it's these that are the cause of most fights.

So, off I went to the LFS again today. Bought the remainder of the Asian Rummynose. Another 8 of them. I also chanced it with 8 of the Purple Emperor Tetras.
Took them home and when they were released they all got into a shoal. Even the Rummynose already in the tank. They seem to love each others company and the Rummynose seem even to single out single Tetras and swim alongside them. So that has worked out really well. I just need more plants now to give overhead cover as in the wild state.

The Firemouths don't seem to even notice the smaller fish. The small ones swim lazily past them and thee Firemouths don't even flinch. The male still doesn't like the Pearl Gourami though, but isn't full on battling with it now. I'm into keeping these instead of the Pearl Gourami. They are really gorgeous fish.
It seems that the introduction of the new small fish in greater numbers has had a calming effect to the other inmates except for the Kribs. They definitely have to go. The Rams are no big problem now either. They do get warned by the Firemouth male with the usual full flared red throat and perhaps chased a bit but not much. SO I can stick with these I think.

The single Green Tiger Barb will go too. It's a shame it has no companions but I don't like the way they develop in maturity. Swimming around, head hanging down and looking hopeless.
The Stratia will be kept. 4 of them is enough though. They do chase around in a group so adding more will not do much more for them. In fact the breeding behavior displayed at present might get interrupted. One of the Plecs with go too.

Plants, lights and algae control are my main issues right now then. I think I'm OK for fish. Things are just about manageable as the majority of them are now so small in relation to what used to be in the tank I think the water parameters will be just fine. PH may still be an issue but I can't do RO water just yet.

I'll try and take a short video to stick on Youtube so you can see how things are shaping up.

I would probably advise you to stop using the Co2 - if you want to keep fish like this Co2 is not a good idea. Co2 tanks are usually only stocked with small fish and usually understocked for visual purposes but also because there is an increased chance that the water will not be saturated with oxygen enough for the fish. Looking at your tank at the moment I dont think you have enough plants to convert the Co2 into oxygen to compensate for the injection. Its really important that you keep an eye out for fish gasping at the surface.

Your tank is too small for some of these fish and this combination is not something I would recommend. You have already said you have had a lot of fish die because of this mix and I unfortunately do not see this changing until you really address your choices in this tank. 2 rams, 2 kribs and 2 firemouths in a 3 foot tank is honestly a ticking time bomb... the great thing about this forum is that we all share our mistakes and putting 6 mid sized american cichlids in a 3 foot tank is well documented on this forum as not working out. You can always track these kind of combinations, someone thinks it will work for them because its ok right now, few months pass and its world war three and they have dead or injured fish.

The same with water conditions - your Rummy Nose Rasbora are probably one of the most perfect fish for your water but the Emperors you have bought are the opposite. If it were me and on day one a fish had eaten a smaller new fish, I wouldnt choose to buy more as it is likely that you will notice them getting picked off over time. Again it feels like this is predictable because the firemouths and kribs will eat small fish.

Choosing to rehome the Tiger Barb and the Kribensis is a good start but please think about what has been said here because I think you are going to cause yourself more issues if you continue in the way you currently are.

Wills

Easy Life Easy Carbo is a 'liquid CO2' product. Their website doesn't say what's in it but most of these product contain glutaraldehyde. Do the bottle or packaging say what it contains? If it is glutaraldehyde, that is a powerful disinfectant used amongst other things to sterilise surgical equipment and in embalming fluid. It has no place in a tank with fish, and it can even kill some plants.

essjay said:

Easy Life Easy Carbo is a 'liquid CO2' product. Their website doesn't say what's in it but most of these product contain glutaraldehyde. Do the bottle or packaging say what it contains? If it is glutaraldehyde, that is a powerful disinfectant used amongst other things to sterilise surgical equipment and in embalming fluid. It has no place in a tank with fish, and it can even kill some plants.

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Can't actually read the miniscule text Essjay. Never mind - I'll desist from using it. I'll probably use it in other containers to grow plants.
It's on to root tabs from now, but I still need more plants so will prioritise that.

Wills said:

I would probably advise you to stop using the Co2 - if you want to keep fish like this Co2 is not a good idea. Co2 tanks are usually only stocked with small fish and usually understocked for visual purposes but also because there is an increased chance that the water will not be saturated with oxygen enough for the fish. Looking at your tank at the moment I dont think you have enough plants to convert the Co2 into oxygen to compensate for the injection. Its really important that you keep an eye out for fish gasping at the surface.

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Use of Co2 now discontinued. More plants is a priority and am considering best options right now.

Your tank is too small for some of these fish and this combination is not something I would recommend. You have already said you have had a lot of fish die because of this mix and I unfortunately do not see this changing until you really address your choices in this tank. 2 rams, 2 kribs and 2 firemouths in a 3 foot tank is honestly a ticking time bomb... the great thing about this forum is that we all share our mistakes and putting 6 mid sized american cichlids in a 3 foot tank is well documented on this forum as not working out. You can always track these kind of combinations, someone thinks it will work for them because its ok right now, few months pass and its world war three and they have dead or injured fish.

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Noted and will act accordingly. I will also be moving out the lone Green Tiger Barb

The same with water conditions - your Rummy Nose Rasbora are probably one of the most perfect fish for your water but the Emperors you have bought are the opposite. If it were me and on day one a fish had eaten a smaller new fish, I wouldnt choose to buy more as it is likely that you will notice them getting picked off over time. Again it feels like this is predictable because the firemouths and kribs will eat small fish.

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There doesn't seem to be much between the Rummynose and Emperors from the perspective of water conditions. The Rummynose are shown to like PH between 7 - 8, and the Emperors between 6 - 7.5 As it's at or around 22PH it has to be not too dissimilar to both species in that respect.
Hardness is off the scale for both species but especially so for the Emperors. This will be rectified when the RO system is installed. The current hardness is astronomical and really beyond the healthy limits of most fish I've looked at. It's going to be short term though, now that I understand things better. In the meantime I'll add bottled Asda water at 8.5p per litre to dilute it. Even this tests out at 167 PPM on the TDS meter

Choosing to rehome the Tiger Barb and the Kribensis is a good start but please think about what has been said here because I think you are going to cause yourself more issues if you continue in the way you currently are.

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Wish I'd found this forum before I started with the hobby. Could have saved a lot of cash, fish and frustration. Thanks a million for your advice. The unwanted fish will be rehomed as the week goes by.

Cool that’s really great sounds like we are on the right track!

For plants check out my signature most of my plants are classed as easy to grow so could be a good starting place. Check out the tropica website too they split their plants into easy, medium, advanced and it’s a good way to learn different plants. Going by your location are you in the north east of the UK? If so you should check out Horizon Aquatics amazing aquascaping shop and will really help you too.

Just to check that when you say 22ph you mea. 22gh?

Wills