How many fish for my 130L community?

Keenamoss said:

It's 2am and my second consecutive late night of internet rabbithole fishiness lol but it is certainly my new obsession, though I haven't actually checked for anything peer reviewed, but let me get back to you? Maybe we can start a new thread and share resources and inspire maybe some new researchers if we find the empirical literature lacking re natural wild habitats.... In the meantime a basic Google search yields:

The Natural Habitat of Betta Fish

The betta splendens -- those colorful little living jewels found in teeny, tiny cups in pet stores -- are not, as the pet store chains would have you believe, found in mud puddles or watery footprints of oxen. They actually live in a large, biodiverse ecosystem in parts of Asia.

pets.thenest.com

Though of course not what you're asking for but. Will need a little more brain power for that

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Would love to see any peer reviewed studies or even video of the other species which live in their natural waterways. Be wary of blog posts, since anyone can write a blog post or make a youtube video without any qualifications or providing evidence for their claims.

The article is a nice overview of how betta really live in the wild, but remember that biodiverse doesn't necessarily mean that it harbours many different species of fish. That kind of habitat is a haven for insects and some plant life, but as that blog post and Byron said, Betta can survive when those environments dry up only because they have a labyrinth organ allowing them to breath from the atmosphere. Most other fish cannot do this, and ones that can, like Gourami, famously should never be in a tank with a betta, since both are territorial fish and will fight.

If wild bettas shared their waters with many other species of fish, I would be on the side that we can replicate that. But the most reliable data I've seen so far is that they live entirely alone, not even tolerating a female for any longer than it takes to spawn, before they will chase her off. When that is how they've evolved to be for thousands of years, I don't see the benefit of forcing them to share territory with different species, especially when we're unable to test the water for aggressive and stress hormones. There could well be a low grade stress response to being confined with other fish they cannot escape or catch to fight and kill, and we'd never know it unless tested under lab conditions. But it would certainly account for the stories where people said their betta had lived with fish for years, before 'snapping'.

So when being with others is certainly not a need or benefit for a betta, nor for the rest of the tank inhabitants, I see little reason to do it except "because I want to".

I agree with your link. Bettas do come from vast slow moving water in the wild which dries up periodically. Bettas should not be kept in cups or tiny bowls. Male and female bettas should not be kept together except briefly while spawning. It also comments that wild bettas are territorial. We should also remember that the bettas we buy have been bred for centuries to be extra aggressive in order to use them for fighting; they are not wild bettas.


It is up to the individual fish keeper how s/he keeps bettas but we would be failing if we did not also warn members of the potential for things to go wrong then allow the member the right to choose.

AdoraBelle Dearheart said:

Would love to see any peer reviewed studies or even video of the other species which live in their natural waterways. Be wary of blog posts, since anyone can write a blog post or make a youtube video without any qualifications or providing evidence for their claims.

The article is a nice overview of how betta really live in the wild, but remember that biodiverse doesn't necessarily mean that it harbours many different species of fish. That kind of habitat is a haven for insects and some plant life, but as that blog post and Byron said, Betta can survive when those environments dry up only because they have a labyrinth organ allowing them to breath from the atmosphere. Most other fish cannot do this, and ones that can, like Gourami, famously should never be in a tank with a betta, since both are territorial fish and will fight.

If wild bettas shared their waters with many other species of fish, I would be on the side that we can replicate that. But the most reliable data I've seen so far is that they live entirely alone, not even tolerating a female for any longer than it takes to spawn, before they will chase her off. When that is how they've evolved to be for thousands of years, I don't see the benefit of forcing them to share territory with different species, especially when we're unable to test the water for aggressive and stress hormones. There could well be a low grade stress response to being confined with other fish they cannot escape or catch to fight and kill, and we'd never know it unless tested under lab conditions. But it would certainly account for the stories where people said their betta had lived with fish for years, before 'snapping'.

So when being with others is certainly not a need or benefit for a betta, nor for the rest of the tank inhabitants, I see little reason to do it except "because I want to".

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I just feel like any being that lives naturally within relationship to other beings, surely has something to gain from like... not being totally isolated and alone their whole lives lol like it just seems a no brainer. A whole mini industry has been developed around the notion of a very pretty fish that can physically survive all alone in a jar on your desk or in a key chain in some countries, but that doesn't make it right. I really will check out my uni database to see if any actual studies have been published about it because I'm interested to see where the ideas have come from if they're not evidence based. Its easy to see where the other ideas have come from given they and all their "betta haven" accessories are mass produced practically everywhere. In the meantime here's a video:

I am in total agreement that bettas should not be kept in tiny jars on a desk or even worse, those keyrings or heels in shoes.
But we also need to bear in mind that in order to replicate a betta's true environment would require an enormous tank. Very few of us have the space for this, and even what is considered as a large aquarium is still small compared to a betta's wild environment where a fish has the choice to leave if it 'unhappy' with its immediate neighbours. When we keep fish in the totally unnatural environment of an aquarium, we should be aware that things can go 'wrong'.
This applies to all fish not just bettas.

Keenamoss said:

I just feel like any being that lives naturally within relationship to other beings, surely has something to gain from like... not being totally isolated and alone their whole lives lol like it just seems a no brainer.

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Applying human perceptions to an animal, especially fish, is a mistake. The fish "expects" the environment in which it has evolved over thousands of years. This is programmed into the species DNA. The excerpt of mine that @essjay cited earlier is accurate scientific data. The same appears on Seriously Fish, a site used by ichthyologists and hobbyists; if data there were scientifically inaccurate, it would have been noteed before now.

Nothing in the article linked in post #15 directly counters what I wrote. As for the video, I did not see mentioned the species of Betta so I cannot comment on how reliable that may or may not be. But I can state there is scientific basis for my earlier comments which gives them their validity.

There is a separation between the natural species and the hobby-refined fish, and that must be kept distinct. The natural habitat of the wild fish is what will govern how the fish thinks and reacts. Human interference with the species has impacted this.

The second point that must be accepted is that the aquarium is, as essjay noted, an artificial environment and it is not what the fish "expects" because of the limitations in this artificial environment. But the basic behaviours of the fish are still those programmed into it by evolution. Selective breeding has heightened some of these, but not changed any of them.

How many fish stores do you have nearby and how big are they? I live in a city with 4 of them, 3 of those are "big box" and carry the same thing. The only one that doesn't ripped me off when I was a newbie and lied about the species of fish. (It was a moderately aggressive cichlid instead of a peaceful gourami) So I purchase most of my fish online (making them very expensive - in the States shipping from the coast to the middle of the continent costs about $40-70) for overnight shipping which is a must for most live animals - but for that perfect or group of fish that you can't get anywhere else it may be your only solution, If you're wanting Rasbora's they may have 5 species while your local store only has the Harlequin, I've got some and they are cute but not particularly interesting. I have a yellow bristlenose pleco I paid a lot for and the little girl never comes out of her cave except at night, BUT I have 8 Dojo loaches (each in different tanks because they keep the snail population down) and they were inexpensive and will have you rolling on the floor with their antics. They LOVE using the bubblers as a slide and take turns with my Kubotai Loaches. and now my YoYo loaches - far less expensive than the bristlenose. Sometimes they sleep stacked neatly in a pile, other nights they look like a pile of snakes. All have grown larger than they are supposed to ( not 5 inches but 8 inches). The Hillstream loach (expensive) but lives in the bubbler - cllinging to the glass he looks like a cooked turkey laying on a platter. If your city has a water department the you can usually find the stats on your water on their website, check a few and you'll probab1y find the loaches have similar stats. Best luck - how exciting!

Your tank sounds amazing! After a bit of a peruse of 6 LFSs nearby and two slightly further I have found ONE I'm reasonably happy with because every time I visit there are a) no dead fish and b) friendly people not just trying to sell things but also c) an interesting variety of animals as well as all the aquarium gadgets and potions and other supplies money can buy. I am a bit limited in what can peacefully coexist with my betta while enjoying the same water parameters so a plain old mini school of harlequin rasboras is fine with me

I had to take my friend's little bristlenose girl earlier than expected and then a week later thought well I may as well get the betta too and see how it all plays out, as was advised he wouldn't make much of a difference in the ammonia in a tank this size just the two of them. I'm just testing every day and dosing with prime and lots of 10% water changes and so far everyone's OK including the billion stowaway snails I now have....

I set up the bristlenose with a driftwood and fake cave area down one end of the tank under the filter for the extra water flow, and the betta has a thickly planted area down the other end where the water is more still, to kind of set them up for success. But the betta is ALWAYS hanging around the driftwood end with the pleco lol and she doesn't mind, I've actually caught them brushing up against each other cutely and no one is stressed or angry at all. When I turn the lights off she scuttles down to his end too and it seems like just a lovely match. Betta is crazy active and goes round inspecting all the snails and still paces the entire length and up and down the 130L watching everything that happens in the lounge room, so i feel like 5-6 rasboras darting around would be nice for him and, since he's so super curious about the pleco and snails but never flares or hurts them (have watched him like a HAWK and the pleco's outgoing nature around him makes me think I'm not missing any covert attacks either) I think it would be OK. But I'm also wondering if the space is what allows him to be chill and adding fish might make him angsty so do have the back up tank just in case I actually bought a bigger back up loll a 90L, so I can have corydoras and another betta, if things go well with the first community lol #addiction

Here's their digs so far