Hey first post, about substrate and cycling

Byron · Jun 20, 2018

Oakensheeld said:
Now that's helpful! As is everyone else but I am printing this and bringing it home. Thank you. I think I'll take out my aragonite and put in play sand this weekend...

Obviously you need a temporary home for the fish while you change substrate. I've done this many times over the years, and it really is crucial to have the fish in a temporary tank where they can remain for a few days so you have time to do the job well rather than worrying about the fish in buckets or whatever. Or return the fish to the store, or re-home, that is your call but other options. You need to know the end result before you start, and as I already said some of these fish are not going to work long-term.

The new substrate will be re-cycling to some degree, depending upon the filter (do NOT rinse it out), what fish you decide to keep, and live plants.

Plants need nitrogen, and they use ammonia/ammonium, so that helps in new tanks. Fast growing plants however, and floating are best for this. You might avoid any cycling with these, depending upon the fish that go back in the finished tank.

Byron · Jun 20, 2018

Oakensheeld said:
So play sand or pool filter sand just curious as to the differences in these? Is it in to add a bit of soil underneath it for the plants? I plan on keeping the holey rock because it's so expensive. 350$ for the bunch I have but I'll make it work, the kuhlis love it because a few pieces I have are straight cavernous.

I'll head to lowes to get sand but want to make sure I'm getting what I need I know play sand can be dull colored and dont really want a tank that looks like a dark ugly base but I plan on carpeting it if possible.... but not all of it

Plants do not need soil or any so-called "plant" substrate. Not only do these waste money (they are very expensive), they can cause real problems with ammonia.

Plain sand is best, for fish and plants. My objection to pool filter sand is that it is usually white, and this is bad for most all freshwater fish. If you can find dark pool filter sand, it might be OK. I use Quikrete Play Sand from Home Depot or Lowe's; I have the dark grey mix, I believe there is also a buff mix. The grey is somewhat better; it looks lighter under water and with the tank lighting than it does dry. But fish seem to like it, my various loaches and cories especially. Just avoid anything white.

Carpet plants are not easy; they need more light, and that means more nutrients to balance. I won't go into this more at present, you have enough to think about.

Oakensheeld · Jun 20, 2018

Byron said:
Plants do not need soil or any so-called "plant" substrate. Not only do these waste money (they are very expensive), they can cause real problems with ammonia.

Plain sand is best, for fish and plants. My objection to pool filter sand is that it is usually white, and this is bad for most all freshwater fish. If you can find dark pool filter sand, it might be OK. I use Quikrete Play Sand from Home Depot or Lowe's; I have the dark grey mix, I believe there is also a buff mix. The grey is somewhat better; it looks lighter under water and with the tank lighting than it does dry. But fish seem to like it, my various loaches and cories especially. Just avoid anything white.

Carpet plants are not easy; they need more light, and that means more nutrients to balance. I won't go into this more at present, you have enough to think about.

Yeah I'm not to worried about that right now, for now I just want to get the tank optimal for my fish... I hope my holey rock doesn't ruin it but I guess I got over zealous

Oakensheeld · Jun 20, 2018

@Byron is there any chance you would have a link to this and you are talking about because I just went to both Lowe's and Home Depot and they do not have it any colored sand at all or on their website I'm just curious to maybe what you were using

Byron · Jun 20, 2018

Oakensheeld said:
@Byron is there any chance you would have a link to this and you are talking about because I just went to both Lowe's and Home Depot and they do not have it any colored sand at all or on their website I'm just curious to maybe what you were using

I'm in Canada, but here is the link to Quikrete Play Sand sold by Home Depot (and Lowe's I think). If you are in the USA, not sure what they may carry.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.premium-play-sand-25kg.1000166231.html

Oakensheeld · Jun 20, 2018

We have that but unforfortunately it's not black. And i really dont want the tan dirt. still gonna go with sand but I'll have to findsomethingt

Byron · Jun 20, 2018

Oakensheeld said:
We have that but unforfortunately it's not black. And i really dont want the tan dirt. still gonna go with sand but I'll have to findsomethingt

You will likely need to get one of the aquarium sands. CarribSea makes one. Very expensive but otherwise fine I expect. I did have black once, and found it unsightly to look at; under the light and water it was a dull dark grey, and every speck of whatever stood out like I have never seen with my play sand or natural mix gravels. These are just cosmetic issues though, not fish-related.

Demeter32 · Jun 20, 2018

Another point on the sand, you might be able to find black diamond blasting sand at a hardware store too. It's used for sanding things down but a lot of people use it in their aquariums. It is a very fine sand, finer than play or pool filter sand, but it might be what you're looking for.

I'd probably pick a dark tan color if I were to do my tanks over again. I only used the pool filter sand because I already had it on hand

Last point, you could do a specific layering for plants but it isn't necessary. I do have dirted tanks with actual soil I collected from the woods but I also have flourite black sand capped with pool filter sand and it seems to work alright. The flourite sand is more of a silt that is very dusty and not that great on it's own, hence the sand cap to keep the particles out of the water column.

Colin_T · Jun 20, 2018

Jewel cichlids (Hemichromis lifalili) are very aggressive when they mature and will cause problems to most fishes in the tank. They also dig so can be a nuisance in a plant tank.

Fire eels are quite happy in water with a moderate hardness (GH less than 250ppm) and a pH between 6.6 & 7.6.

Don't waste your money buying "special plant substrates". If you want to fertilise your plants, get some red or orange clay and make balls out of it that are about 10mm in diameter. Let the balls dry and stick 1 under each plant.

Be careful about different types of gravel. Lots of brands of black gravel can be sharp and you need a smooth gravel/ sand for bottom dwelling fishes like catfish and eels.

If you have a powerfilter, then leave the fish in the tank and use a spare aquarium net or a fine strainer/ colander to remove the gravel in the tank. The fish will be fine altho a bit stressed. Then add the new substrate. Make sure you wash new the substrate/ sand well before adding it to the tank.

If you have an undergravel filter, then remove the fish and ornaments and then take the gravel out. Sand is bad for undergravel filters so use a smooth gravel if you have an undergravel filter.

Oakensheeld · Jun 21, 2018

Colin_T said:
Jewel cichlids (Hemichromis lifalili) are very aggressive when they mature and will cause problems to most fishes in the tank. They also dig so can be a nuisance in a plant tank.

Fire eels are quite happy in water with a moderate hardness (GH less than 250ppm) and a pH between 6.6 & 7.6.

Don't waste your money buying "special plant substrates". If you want to fertilise your plants, get some red or orange clay and make balls out of it that are about 10mm in diameter. Let the balls dry and stick 1 under each plant.

Be careful about different types of gravel. Lots of brands of black gravel can be sharp and you need a smooth gravel/ sand for bottom dwelling fishes like catfish and eels.

If you have a powerfilter, then leave the fish in the tank and use a spare aquarium net or a fine strainer/ colander to remove the gravel in the tank. The fish will be fine altho a bit stressed. Then add the new substrate. Make sure you wash new the substrate/ sand well before adding it to the tank.

If you have an undergravel filter, then remove the fish and ornaments and then take the gravel out. Sand is bad for undergravel filters so use a smooth gravel if you have an undergravel filter.

Good advice, I've got a canister filter with a small circulation pump thanks.

Byron · Jun 21, 2018

Demeter32 said:
Another point on the sand, you might be able to find black diamond blasting sand at a hardware store too. It's used for sanding things down but a lot of people use it in their aquariums. It is a very fine sand, finer than play or pool filter sand, but it might be what you're looking for.

My understanding from discussions with Quikrete and others is that blasting sand is or can be sharp. It is not refined, and as it is meant for "blasting" it needs to be sharp. Play sand is highly refined, the most refined of the industrial sands, and the only one safe for fish in my view.

As for Flourite, that was the black plant substrate I used for two years in one tank before tearing it down and chucking the Flourite into the garden. It cut up the cories unbelievably (I removed them after a few days to another tank with play sand and they fortunately recovered). And it did not have much if any benefit for plants. I wondered why it wasn't, when others told me I still had to use substrate tabs and liquid fertilizers the same as with play sand, as Flourite (in spite of Seachem's claims to the contrary) did not release nutrients. My experience confirmed this, and given the sharpness issue I no longer recommend this. Eco-complete is pretty much the same so also not advisable.

Demeter32 · Jun 21, 2018

Never heard that about the blasting sand, I just see that it is often recommended on another forum. But the sharpness makes sense as it is indeed meant to be abrasive.

As for the flourite, I meant to use it with a sand cap, not alone. In theory I figured it would be good for plants to take root in as it has a mixed consistency. I know that my micro swords and rotala have taken a liking to it, but I still use clay based root tabs. Everything I do is still an on-going experiment though. The only conclusive things I've come down to is crypts cannot be killed (at least by me) and the colored gravels are offending to the eye.

Byron · Jun 21, 2018

Demeter32 said:
As for the flourite, I meant to use it with a sand cap, not alone. In theory I figured it would be good for plants to take root in as it has a mixed consistency. I know that my micro swords and rotala have taken a liking to it, but I still use clay based root tabs. Everything I do is still an on-going experiment though.

Photos can illustrate, so here is one after two years with the Flourite (on its own). I set this up in the Spring of 2011, and this photo was the last I took (November 2012) before tearing this tank apart in early 2013. Substrate was Flourite, and I started using Flourish Comprehensive when advised that Flourite would not provide what was needed, as indeed it was not.

I used play sand alone for the re-build; I used the same plants, thinned out, and a couple new swords (new meaning to this tank, they were adventitious plants from the 115g). After just one year, in February 2014, it looked as in the second photo. I could not detect any improved plant growth during the two years with Flourite, compared to the sand with weekly Flourish Comprehensive and Flourish Tabs next to only the three larger swords.

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Hey first post, about substrate and cycling

Byron

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