Using RO to reduce hardness

seangee

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I have been contemplating this for a while. My water is hard (16dGH and 20dKH) and I would like to create a more natural environment in my S American community tank so have a few questions before deciding on my options:
  1. Are the measurement scales linear? (e.g. if I mix 25 litres of RO with 75 litres of tap water would the result be 12dGH and 15dKH).
  2. What would be a good target?
  3. How slowly should I go to avoid shocking the fish
I have also read on some planted forums that some plants can leach carbonate from the water but can't find any references to which plants. Has anyone heard of this?
 
Most, but certainly not all, aquarium plants can use bicarbonates. Hard water species are better at this (Vallisneria for example). At the opposite end, mosses cannot do this at all, along with plants like Ceratopteris, Helanthium (the chain swords), some Echinodorus, and some others. Bicarbonates are another source of carbon, so the plants that can use bicarbonates as well as CO2 have a bit of an advantage and are all found in harder water. Walstad mentions that plants prefer CO2 to bicarbonates 10 to 1. From this I would not expect it to be significant.

On the mix of RO/tap water, it is proportional. Mixing half RO with half tap will reduce GH/KH by half, and pH will lower some.

I would want to know the fish species before suggesting targets for GH/KH. If you have plants, to ensure sufficient calcium and magnesium you might want to stay no lower than say 4, 5 or 6 dGH. On the other hand, some fish would prefer it near zero, and you can always supplement plant calcium and magnesium with fertilizers. I have zero GH/KH tap water, and I was using Seachem's Equilbrium for a couple years to raise the GH in a three tanks to 5 or 6 dGH. While the plants definitely improved, fish problems caused me to rethink this and I no longer do. But I found that the Flourish Tabs in the substrate next to the larger swords (they showed the most calcium deficiencies) and replaced every 6-8 weeks instead of the suggested 3-4 months work just as well, or nearly; I also use Flourish Comprenehsive Supplement but minimally, again for the fish's benefit. I always expect my plants to manage and concentrate on the fish requirements first. The minerals in the tabs do not get into the water column above the substrate, and thus not into the fish.

Once you know the target, water changes will require prepared water outside the aquarium. I believe this is how most do it, but I will leave it for those members that use RO to suggest methods.
 
Thanks for taking the time to respond @Byron. Current stock is:
AquStockImage.png


The tank has 180 litres of water and I change 100l per week. pH is usually in the range 7.3 - 7.6 but recently has been tending closer to 8 (source water measured 1 week after filtration).

I have kept these species with only minor variations for 20 years but moved to this area around 14 years ago. My guess is the Bristlenose is the only one that remains from my previous home. All my fish are locally sourced and captive bred.

If I interpret SF's profiles correctly 12dH (I assume this refers to GH) is the top of the recommended range for the Cardinals, Peppers and Sids while everything else shows an upper limit of 15dH.

If I were to aim for a 25% RO mix that would give me 12dGH and 16dKH. This would be the "easy" option for me because I would simply buy the RO. I have no doubt this would be a preferable environment but would the difference actually be significant? (for the fish).

If I were to go for 50/50 economics vs convenience would suggest that I would be better off getting my own RO filter.

Am I safe to assume that for either option I can just leave the pH to find its own level with that amount of buffering. I do have around 6KG (dry weight) of wood in the tank, unsurprisingly that currently has no impact on pH.

I agree with your comments on plants vs fish. If the plants can't cope they will be changed. I suspect that won't be neccessary as the planted plants are all slow growing and suited to the blackwater environment, with frogbit floating in the hood.
 
Accurately adjusting pH can only be achieved by adjusting the GH and KH. The pH will be relevant to these most of the time; exceptions are situations like mine where the GH/KH of our source water is basically zero, and the pH would naturally be very acidic, so they add soda ash to raise the pH to around 7. But this is not permanent, and in my tanks the pH is much lower, depending upon the individual tank. But left on its own, the pH will be relative to the GH/KH and the environmental factors like organics. The more organics, the lower (more acidic) the pH, subject to the buffering capability of the GH/KH. So while wood, dried leaves, and normal fish excrement would all work to acidify and lower the pH, this may be offset by the buffering of the GH and KH (latter in particular, but GH does factor in as that is thee dissolved mineral). I tend to let the pH do what it wants as it will be more stable long-term. The more we target the pH, the more complicated the water chemistry becomes, and changing one factor can have unexpected reactions.

The numbers on SF for GH are ranges that should in most cases allow the fish to manage. Obviously the only accurate guide is the habitat waters. These are remarkably stable permanently. For example, in the Rio Negro, the largest blackwater river in the world and the sixth largest tributary of the Rio Amazonas, the GH and KH are zero and the pH is in the range of low to mid-4. More than one study has noted pH of the high 3's. The environmental factors are so significant and stable, that the parameters simply do not fluctuate. You might think a pH of 3.9 in one area and a pH of 4.5 in another (these are actual reported test results) indicates fluctuation, but that is not the case, as these numbers tend to remain steady in those ecological areas. Even temperature variation throughout the year is a degree or two at most. So aiming for parameters in the aquarium that are as close as reasonably possible to the habitat of a species will obviously mean a better chance of healthy fish.

Which brings me to the matter of adaptability due to commercially-raising species. A study in the 1980's in Germany on cardinal tetras (Parachierodon axelrodi) determined that lifespan was directly related to the mineral content of the water (other factors being equal). The higher the GH, the shorter the lifespan. Upon dissection following death, calcium blockage of the kidneys was determined to be the cause of death. Clearly this species has a preference for very soft water, and providing that will allow for a healthier fish. How many generations of tank rearing will it take to alter the fish's physiology to the extent that it somehow manages to flush out calcium? This is how the kidneys work. I am skeptical that the physiology is going to change significantly if at all. Different species may show different levels of tolerance or adaptability. But forcing the fish into such a situation also has other risks, such as stress. And how is the metabolism going to be affected (weakened) if the fish is having to deal with something it was not designed to deal with? Another thing about commercially (tank) raised fish is their weakness in general; these species are usually much more susceptible to various pathogens than wild fish. This is probably not a coincidence, but a result of all this attempted tampering with nature. That does not always mean replicating the values of the Rio Negro, but my own view which is shared by the ichthyologists I have read or conversed with, is that the closer we get to the habitat the better. The late characin authority Dr. Jacques Gery wrote that cardinal tetras usually live for 2-3 or 4 years; but when provided with very soft water, they will live beyond 10 years. I've no data on the water that is being used for tank-raised cardinals in the EU, nor how long those fish can be expected to live.
 
Thanks Byron - informative as usual with plenty of food for thought.
A study in the 1980's in Germany on cardinal tetras (Parachierodon axelrodi) determined that lifespan was directly related to the mineral content of the water (other factors being equal)
I suspect that's the same study that started my current train of thought. My gut feel is that my cardinals live for 3-4 years, but I don't keep records so it is just what I think. I also think my fish are healthy. The question none of us can answer is does a fish that dies of organ failure after 4 years have a lesser quality of life than the fish that dies of organ failure (a.k.a. old age) after 10 years.
 
Most, but certainly not all, aquarium plants can use bicarbonates. Hard water species are better at this (Vallisneria for example).
Interestingly around 10 days ago I spotted what I thought may be eggs on the v.spiralis in my nano. As the days have progressed the coverage has increased and I am now of the opinion that it is actually calciferous deposits (i.e. limescale), its certainly not eggs. These are the only plants affected and the vals in my community tank are not affected.

No real differences in the chemistry of the tanks but I do run the lights longer in the nano (but it is in a dark room) and it is more heavily planted, with less floating plants. My weekly w/c is 40% in this tank compared to 60% in the big one. The vals do much better in this tank, but so far I have assumed this has more to do with the lighting. No discernable difference in hardness - although I do only use strips to test this. Needless to say this is not the tank where I would like to reduce hardness but I'll keep an eye on it.
 

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