Ich in my community tank

Byron said:

First, take a step back. Most fish can deal with ich on their own--after all, if not, ich in nature would have killed off the fish long ago...

Ich is caused by stress, period. Many believe ich is always present in most of our tanks, but it is only severe stress that brings it on...

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In the wild the parasites fall off the fish and settle in the mud on the bottom of the creek or river. As the fish swim around they move to a different section of the river in search of food or new habitat, leaving the parasites behind. When the parasites are released from the cyst several days later, they get washed downstream (if there is flowing water) or they swim around the waterway looking for a new host. If they don't find a new host within 48 hours they die. So unless the parasite can find a new host in a large body of water, within a short period of time, the fish won't be reinfected.

Compare that to an aquarium with a much smaller volume of water and more fish in close proximity to the newly released parasites. The whitespot parasites have ample opportunity to find and infect any fish in that aquarium. And if left untreated, it will kill every fish in an aquarium by causing scar tissue to the gills and the fish suffocate.

Ichthyopthirius is not caused by stress. It is caused by direct contact with a parasite that has to be introduced into an aquarium by a host fish, or contaminated plants or water. If stress caused Ich, then every quarantine tank would have it. We had 200-2000 fish in each tank in the quarantine room. The fish were overcrowded and lived in all glass tanks with no background picture, gravel, plants or ornaments. They were shipped here in plastic bags containing less than 1 litre of water and the water stank from ammonia when we open the bags. These fish are extremely stressed when we get them but they do not come down with whitespot because it is not in the tanks.

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You can use salt if you like but I never bothered using it with heat treatment. It won't hurt the fish at the recommended dose rate but in my experience, it doesn't help kill the parasites either. If you get the salt levels high enough it can kill the parasites but the high dose rates are not tolerated by Cories

Scaleless fishes are not necessarily adversely affected by salt. We have fish in Australia and New Zealand called Galaxias. They are scaleless but several species have a larval stage that lives in the ocean. And Galaxias tolerate salt very well in an aquarium. Stingrays that live in the ocean are scaleless too

The reason Corydoras and some loaches have problems with salt is because they originate in pure freshwater with virtually no mineral content, and certainly no sodium chloride in the water. These fishes have evolved in pure water and have not been exposed to salt in the wild. Subsequently they have smaller kidneys compared to same sized fishes that occur in brackish or seawater. Because of this they are less able to tolerate salt for extended periods. Domestic captive bred Corydoras are more tolerant of salt compared to wild caught Corydoras, but they still have small kidneys and don't tolerate high levels of salt for long periods of time.

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Salt will not affect the filter cartridge so leave it in the filter

I only suggest using salt if the ich is obviously more severe. Flashing alone is not "severe," as I explained, unless obviously it is frequent on many fish. Ich always first attacks fish gills, so we don't see spots but just flashing; but flashing can be any number of things, and again stress is at the bottom of 95% of all fish disease. And a spot or two is not severe. Fish if not stressed can fight this off. And remember that any thing you do is causing stress, be it raising the temperature or using any medication.

This is not easy to put into words; experience over decades helps me recognize problems. If I see a spot or two, I just observe. If the spots increase, I move to heat and salt. Heat alone, but most agree that it has to be up around 90F/32C. This will definitely cause additional stress, so you need to balance the situation.

Colin_T said:

Ichthyopthirius is not caused by stress. It is caused by direct contact with a parasite that has to be introduced into an aquarium by a host fish, or contaminated plants or water. If stress caused Ich, then every quarantine tank would have it. We had 200-2000 fish in each tank in the quarantine room. The fish were overcrowded and lived in all glass tanks with no background picture, gravel, plants or ornaments. They were shipped here in plastic bags containing less than 1 litre of water and the water stank from ammonia when we open the bags. These fish are extremely stressed when we get them but they do not come down with whitespot because it is not in the tanks.

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Stress is the direct cause of 95% of all fish disease. Obviously the pathogen must be present, but it is stress that triggers the outbreak of the disease. Stress levels vary with fish, species and individual, and other factors in the environment.

Byron said:

I only suggest using salt if the ich is obviously more severe. Flashing alone is not "severe," as I explained, unless obviously it is frequent on many fish. Ich always first attacks fish gills, so we don't see spots but just flashing; but flashing can be any number of things, and again stress is at the bottom of 95% of all fish disease. And a spot or two is not severe. Fish if not stressed can fight this off. And remember that any thing you do is causing stress, be it raising the temperature or using any medication.

This is not easy to put into words; experience over decades helps me recognize problems. If I see a spot or two, I just observe. If the spots increase, I move to heat and salt. Heat alone, but most agree that it has to be up around 90F/32C. This will definitely cause additional stress, so you need to balance the situation.

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I had to google what flashing is. But all of my female bettas in this tank are doing it. They like to rub against the dwarf hairgrass, as if they are scratching an itch. I said earlier that my bettas in other tanks do it too, but it's not quite the same. My bettas in other tanks like to swim around between the hairgrass, as if patrolling the substrate. In this tank, it's like they are using it as a backscratcher. So.... even though I'm not seeing the spots on any bettas except for the one, they're all doing this itchy/scratchy thing.

I'm thinking there's ich in this tank that I'm not seeing.

When I did the tank rearrange, my kuhli loaches even temporarily lost color from the stress. Although their color came back within an hour. They turned almost pasty white. So they were certainly stressed out. I'm pretty sure this ich outbreak was triggered by stress.

If your other fish have Ich, they will develop white spots on their body or fins. The white spots will be noticeable for a couple of days before they drop off the fish and divide in the substrate. Then a few days later the fish develop more white spots.

Flashing or rubbing on objects in a tank can be caused by anything that irritates the fish. It is normally caused by protozoans biting the fish and the fish rub against objects in an attempt to dislodge the offending parasites. Whitespot (Ich) is a protozoan parasite but there are numerous other species of protozoan parasites that infect fish and cause them to itch or rub/ flash against objects.

Costia, Trichodina & Chilodonella are 3 common protozoan parasites that infect fish and cause them to itch. These parasites cause the fish to produce more mucous over their body and they develop a cream or grey film over the infected areas.

Chemicals in the water can cause some fish to flash/ rub against objects and sometimes fish get an itch. However, if a fish is rubbing against plants or other objects more than once every couple of days, then it is most likely a parasite.

It is believed that Ich lies dormant in all fish tanks, just waiting for an opportunity to attack. This is not accurate.

Most strains of Ich can be eradicated by heat treatment, but there is at least one strain in Florida that is known to be heat-tolerant.

I’m home from work.

I’ve added half the recommended dose of aquarium salt. The directions say 1 tablespoon per every 5 gallons, and I have a 30 gallon tank, so I did 3 tablespoons.

I also went ahead and brought the heat up to 86 degrees F. The tank is heating now.

I have the light on a timer but I went ahead and just turned it off to reduce stress. The room gets a lot of natural light anyway. There’s a skylight and big windows.

I examined the tank and one more tetra and one more betta both have a single white spot on their head that I didn’t see yesterday. These are two fish in addition to yesterday’s post now showing white spots. The betta from yesterday’s post looks the same. But the tetra from that post, his white spots are a lot less visible... I only see one spot on it now where yesterday there were 3 or 4 spots. So idk if the ich is in a better or worse shape than last night. It’s mixed. Less spots on one fish, but more fish showing.

From what I’ve read this could just be the lifecycle of the parasite playing out, and raising the heat slowly since last night, could have accelerated that. Y’all said the spots show at the end of the parasite’s life. Then it propagates. So that’s probably exactly what I’m seeing.

I know it’ll take time and things will probably get worse before they get better because that’s how treating an illness in any living creature works. So I’ll give it time and see how it goes.

If I need to add more salt for it to be effective let me know. I’m just kinda scared of salt after all the corydora and loach horror stories I’ve heard.

Also, I noticed more of those brown/red worms crawling above the water again. I took a pic. What are they? Is this maybe the parasite? There’s less of them than there was the other day.

IHaveADogToo said:

I’ve added half the recommended dose of aquarium salt. The directions say 1 tablespoon per every 5 gallons, and I have a 30 gallon tank, so I did 3 tablespoons.

If I need to add more salt for it to be effective let me know. I’m just kinda scared of salt after all the corydora and loach horror stories I’ve heard.

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If you rely on the salt...You will need more salt to be effective. I followed Neale Monks' instructions and used 2 grams per liter; one level teaspoon is approximately 6 grams, so that treats 3 liters. One gallon is 3.7 liters. When calculating water volume, you need to take into account the displacement of substrate, wood, rock, décor. I usually round down to be safe, using less than more.

Assuming you have say 23 gallons of actual water, that would be 87 liters, which would require 29 level teaspoons. You could go a bit lower, and assume 20 gallons of water, which would be 75 liters, requiring 25 level teaspoons. Not sure how many tablespoons this works out to, but it is more than 3.

Remember to completely dissolve the salt in water and pour that in; and do it over several hours. I use a jar with a tight fitting lid; hot water (from the tap, salt dissolves better), salt added (say 3 or 4 teaspoons), cover and shake until dissolved. Pour in.

I did the above, with heat at 86C/30C, with cories and loaches. I kept a close eye on the fish to observe any signs of stress; none occurred, but if they do, a partial water change is in order.

The directions said 1 heaping tablespoon for every 5 gallons, and your instructions say roughly 1 level teaspoon per gallon... to be fair a heaping tablespoon is about 5 or 6 level teaspoons. So your directions aren’t that far off from what the packaging says. I can add more salt, but your directions (taking actual water volume without decor and substrate) would only really call for one more heaping tablespoon.


As for how I added the salt, I took a cup and put the salt in it, then I added tank water. Stirred it around, dissolved all I could and waited for the rest to settle, then I took a turkey baster and added just the water with dissolved salt to the tank until all that was left in the cup was undissolved salt, then I refilled the cup with more tank water and did it again. I kept repeating this process until all of the salt had dissolved and I was not seeing leftover salt in the bottom of the cup anymore. It took about an hour.

The fish are all acting fine. At first my kuhlis were spazzed when I was adding the salt but when I turned off the lamp they instantly calmed down. They spaz sometimes just from the light being on anyway so that wasn’t out of character.

It’s now been a few hours since the temp was raised to 86 and the salt was added. I can’t really check for white dots with the lamp off. So I don’t know if the fish look any better or worse. But they seem to be all acting okay. I’ll leave the lamp off until I get home from work tomorrow just to be keep stress down for a full 24 hours.

How long after adding salt should I wait to do a partial water change? Should I give that 24 hours or should I do that tonight before bed?

IHaveADogToo said:

I’ve added half the recommended dose of aquarium salt. The directions say 1 tablespoon per every 5 gallons, and I have a 30 gallon tank, so I did 3 tablespoons.

I also went ahead and brought the heat up to 86 degrees F. The tank is heating now.

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Ok, now add 2 onions, some potatoes, a cup of rice and bring it to the boil. only joking

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IHaveADogToo said:

I examined the tank and one more tetra and one more betta both have a single white spot on their head that I didn’t see yesterday. These are two fish in addition to yesterday’s post now showing white spots. The betta from yesterday’s post looks the same. But the tetra from that post, his white spots are a lot less visible... I only see one spot on it now where yesterday there were 3 or 4 spots. So idk if the ich is in a better or worse shape than last night. It’s mixed. Less spots on one fish, but more fish showing.

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That is a normal part of the whitespot lifecycle. Read the following link for more info on the lifecycle of this parasite. The first post on Page 1 and last post on Page 2 tell you about the lifecycle. The last post on Page 2 is more for beginners.
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/what-is-ich.7092/page-2

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Monitor the water quality over the next week, if you get an ammonia, nitrite or high nitrate reading then do a water change and add salt to the new water before you add it to the tank. If the water quality is fine and you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and low nitrate, then do not do water changes until after treatment.

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The brown worms are just aquatic worms that live in the gravel and feeding on fish poop and rotting organic matter. They don't like heat or salt and are trying to get out. Just ignore them. Regular gravel cleaning (when you do water changes) will help remove gunk and keep their numbers low.

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You don't have to turn your lights off when treating Ich.
In the morning turn the room light on or open the curtains. Wait 30minutes or more before turning the tank light on. If you have more than one light on the aquarium, turn one light on, wait an hour then turn another on.
At night turn the room lights on, then turn the tank light off. Wait 30 minutes or more before turning the room light out.
This allows the fish to wake up with low light rather than being in a dark tank and suddenly getting full bright light.

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An easy way to add salt water to a tank is to have the bucket of salt water above the aquarium and use a piece of aquarium airline/ tubing to syphon the salt water into the tank. You can put an airstone and lead weight (small fishing sinker) on one end of the airline and that sits in the bucket of salt water. Then suck on the other end to get it syphoning. Put that end in the tank and the salt water will slowly drain into the tank. Saves messing about with a turkey baster.
*NB* do not rest a bucket of water on the coverglass. Put a couple of bits of wood across the width of the tank and rest the bucket on the wood.

Colin_T said:

You don't have to turn your lights off when treating Ich.

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I understand that. The room gets a lot of natural light anyway, between the windows and the skylight, and the fact that it's my living room so if I'm home the room is lit. But the tank lamp does indeed stress out the kuhli loaches. During this time of heat and salt, I want as little stress as possible for everyone in the tank. I understand disabling the lamp will only benefit the kuhlis, not anyone else, and I understand it's doing nothing to help or hinder the ich treatment.

I have my tank lights on timers. The lights turn on an hour after sunrise, and turn off when I'm home and have the lights in the house on. I keep my curtains open except for in the evening, and I open them back up before I go to bed because I am not a morning person and I can't be bothered in the morning. I got into this habit from keeping plants in the house.

Okay, I examined the fish last night with the tank light on. Here are my observations:

The white spots are certainly becoming less and less. There's still one or two spots on a few fish, but they're a lot less noticeable, and there's less spots than there was previously.

One of my bettas that was never showing white spots has become lethargic and hides a lot since I started the heat and salt treatment. The other bettas will dance when they see me, and beg for food, but not this one. She has been hiding a lot more the past few days. I also have not seen her eat since starting treatment. She's been taking a long time to come out during feeding time, where just about every other fish in the tank is front and center, and when she does come out I don't see her eat. I've tried putting food right near her; no interest. No interest in the betta pellets, no interest in flake food, no interest in frozen blood worms which really surprises me. She, along with all my bettas, knows all about the long tweezers and the bloodworms, and normally that is her favorite part of the day. She suddenly lost interest in it. Could this be from the heat or the salt? Should I be worried, or should I expect her behavior and appetite to return to normal after treatment? She's not laying on the substrate or wedging herself between plants or anything like that, but she is hiding out in caves and dark areas of the tank, when she used to be a lot more social.

One of my Kuhli loach's stripes has been changing for about the last month. This in itself can be a pretty stressful process, and ever since adding salt and turning up the heat this loach in particular has been especially spazzy. When the loaches are stressed, they get pasty white, but this one has been turning pasty white frequently. His color always eventually returns, but it's happening a lot more often that what I would consider normal. Like I said, when a loach's stripes change that's especially stressful on the loach, and I think the heat and salt is pushing this one loach's stress level too far. When the lamp is off he acts like all the other loaches do, but if the lamp is on he spazzes and swims laps at high speed.

My nerite snail won't stay in the tank. It's an escape artist, and ever since turning up the heat and adding salt it's gone from escaping once every few days to escaping multiple times a day. When I got home from work yesterday, it had crawled out of the tank, and all the way down the outside of the tank. It was bone dry. I put it back in the tank and it was alive and it started moving along, but from what I've read a snail constantly trying to get out of a tank could mean there's something wrong in the tank. Maybe it's trying to escape the parasite infected water? Maybe it's the heat, or the salt? Or maybe I'm just due for a water change?

Are these items indicative that I need to change the water and remove some salt? Honestly, I'll probably go ahead and change the water tonight anyway, because these items are telling me I have a water issue, but should I add salt to the new water, or should I use unsalted water to start diluting the salt in the tank?

How long should I keep the heat turned up? 2 weeks? I think that was what someone said. I just want to be sure. I know it's a bad idea to just turn the heat back down because you stop seeing white spots, as that is part of the parasite's lifecycle. Also, when I do eventually turn the heat down, should I just turn the thermostat back down to my desired temp of 78 and let the tank naturally drop in temperature to that, or should I turn the thermostat down over the course of several hours like I did when turning it up?

It is sometimes (well, always) a bit difficult assessing a situation when one is not there to observe and have the observational background to recognize everything. But from what you've said, I would be inclined to do a partial water change and not add more salt; this will lessen the salt content. With betta certainly, and I would say kuhlii loaches too, heat should not be such a problem (compared to salt). Invertebrates (snails) do not like salt either.

What is the temperature now? In the low to mid-80's should be OK. Heat speeds up the cycle so you treat faster, that is the advantage. I am not convinced that heat will kill ich unless much higher. One week can be sufficient but it is best to give a second (whole or in part).

Byron said:

It is sometimes (well, always) a bit difficult assessing a situation when one is not there to observe and have the observational background to recognize everything. But from what you've said, I would be inclined to do a partial water change and not add more salt; this will lessen the salt content. With betta certainly, and I would say kuhlii loaches too, heat should not be such a problem (compared to salt). Invertebrates (snails) do not like salt either.

What is the temperature now? In the low to mid-80's should be OK. Heat speeds up the cycle so you treat faster, that is the advantage. I am not convinced that heat will kill ich unless much higher. One week can be sufficient but it is best to give a second (whole or in part).

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Okay cool. We're definitely on the same wavelength here. I'll do a PWC tonight and not add any more salt.

It's interesting that nerite snails don't like salt. Don't they need salt or brackish water to reproduce?

Currently the temp is set to 86 (F). I don't want to go too high for the corydoras. I normally keep it between 78 and 79.

IHaveADogToo said:

Okay cool. We're definitely on the same wavelength here. I'll do a PWC tonight and not add any more salt.

It's interesting that nerite snails don't like salt. Don't they need salt or brackish water to reproduce?

Currently the temp is set to 86 (F). I don't want to go too high for the corydoras. I normally keep it between 78 and 79.

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I missed the nerite...yes, salt is not likely a factor there, so that could be temperature? You might move him elsewhere to see, but remember that he can carry ich with him to other tanks.

The one-two week temp should be OK, but again keep an eye on them. I had some 50 wild caught cories in the tank I treated with salt, and none were lost (that was 2-3 years ago) and I did not see any issues at the time, as I was keeping a close eye due to the heat and salt.

For the regular temperature, 78-79 is a bit warm for most cories; in the mid-70's is better. Mine are at 74-75F (24.5 C). Several species have repeatedly spawned, and I have had most of these for over 7-8 years now, so this temp seems OK. One or two degrees may not seem like much, but fish are ectotherms so their metabolism is governed strictly by the external temperature of the water. The warmer the water, the more energy it takes to function, and this adds to the fish's stress and affects many functions. So fish generally speaking will be better able to function and cope with adverse issues in cooler rather than warmer water...again being general. Some fish need the higher temps, and some will have less trouble outside their best range. But in general, when a range of temperature is indicated for a species, mid-range is usually better long-term. The low and high ends are manageable but not often if permanent.