Would this stocking be compatible?

Hyr

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Hi. I have received no help in my other thread regarding helping me decide on a stocking, so I ended up reaching out to one of my friends. This is what we decided on:
2x Blue German Rams
15x Cardinal Tetras
2x Otocinclius
6x Panda Corydoras
5x Crystal Red Shrimp

Would this work? My water parameters are neutral pH and 2dkH/gH. My tank is going to be a heavily planted iwagami aquascape. It is 30 gallons, and has a Eheim Pro 4+ 250gph canister filtering it.
Also, if you think you can make the stocking cooler, give it a go!
 
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I can spot a couple of issues right away.

The rams need much warmer water than most tropicals; the panda cories definitely need it cooler, so they're not a good mix. The rams will almost certainly eat the shrimps as well.

The otos need to be in a much larger group; as a social fish a pair isn't enough for them to feel happy.
 
I can spot a couple of issues right away.

The rams need much warmer water than most tropicals; the panda cories definitely need it cooler, so they're not a good mix. The rams will almost certainly eat the shrimps as well.

The otos need to be in a much larger group; as a social fish a pair isn't enough for them to feel happy.
Could I possibly replace the panda corydoras and shrimps with more otos? They grow to be 4" long so I'm not sure how many I can have.. If not otos, what are some other algae eaters that would work? Bristlenose Plecostomus? I really don't want a SAE, they aren't great community fish from what I've read. Also another thing that's on my mind is I would like the BGR's to be the biggest fish in the aquarium, so 4+ oto's are iffy. Thanks!
 
Fish that effectively eat algae have issues. If you like the fish species on its own merits as a fish, then you can build the tank around them. If you think you want the fish more to eat algae and less because you actually like the species, that is another matter. Fish that eat algae are fussy in what algae they will eat. And ensuring they have the necessary algae, or type of algae, is sometimes tricky too.

What otos are you thinking of? Most do not get anywhere close to 4 inches, more like under 2 inches. And cories will not eat algae like otos.

As fluttermoth said, temperature is the thing here. Rams (the common blue or any of the varieties, species is Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) need warmth, with 80F minimum. Cardinals are OK with this. Most all cories are not. And most otos will find this too warm too. A Bristlenose pleco would be at the high end of its range. (I can't speak for shrimp, others can comment.) You're right about SAE, they get large (6 inches), need a group as they are shoaling, and will only be effective for brush algae.

Another aspect is water flow. Rams and cardinals are quiet water fish that do not appreciate battling any current. This is from the filter. Also, both rams and cardinals tend to remain in the lower level, rams are actually substrate fish in most aspects. Light is another concern, with the mention of iwagami aquascape. If by this you mean something like the photo below, cardinal tetra will not be at all happy. They have something of a light phobia, and overhead light has to be minimal, or shaded with floating plants.

I've raised more issues than answered probably, so I'll hold off any fish species recommendation until I have a better idea of where this is going.

Byron.
 

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Red Cherry shrimp are fine at 80F, they breed faster than pest snails.
 
What otos are you thinking of? Most do not get anywhere close to 4 inches, more like under 2 inches. And cories will not eat algae like otos.
I've scrapped the "algae eater" idea somewhat. After doing minimal research, most places say I don't need algae eaters and they aren't necessarily effective and that they're needed is somewhat fish store propaganda. Is this true?
Another aspect is water flow. Rams and cardinals are quiet water fish that do not appreciate battling any current. This is from the filter.
Is 250gph diffused through 11 holes on a 10" spray bar to much? So 22gph per each hole, with just less of an inch between, so I reckon good flow, but not horrible?
Light is another concern, with the mention of iwagami aquascape. If by this you mean something like the photo below, cardinal tetra will not be at all happy. They have something of a light phobia, and overhead light has to be minimal, or shaded with floating plants.
Yes, that would be an issue. I am going to have 240 leds, ~8000 lumens, over the whole tank. However, it will be approx. 8" above the tank, with a 16" depth, so 24" diffused across a 3' tank. Are there any other schooling fish that don't have a problem with light? I read about photophobia the other day, but I thought it was only genetic in neon's and other inbred species, my bad. *Also, I really DON'T want floating plants. I find them unattractive, but if the fish need it, I'll do it.
Red Cherry shrimp are fine at 80F, they breed faster than pest snails.
Considering the exponential bioload caused by these shrimp, I understand if they have a low bio-load, but if they're that abundant while breeding, should I be concerned in a 30 gallon tank? I will be over-filtering it, obviously. 8.3x/hr.
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So, we've scrapped corydoras, cardinal tetras, otos. I don't know what to do guys..
 
Considering the exponential bioload caused by these shrimp, I understand if they have a low bio-load, but if they're that abundant while breeding, should I be concerned in a 30 gallon tank?
I wouldn't worry about it
 
I've scrapped the "algae eater" idea somewhat. After doing minimal research, most places say I don't need algae eaters and they aren't necessarily effective and that they're needed is somewhat fish store propaganda. Is this true?

Yes, to a certain exztent. Stores may sell certain fish as "algae eaters" and the aquarist takes them home thinking they will keep the aquarium free of algae. No fish will do this. And algae is natural and beneficial and part of a healthy ecosystem. We aim to keep it under control, especially in planted tanks, as it can encrust plant leaves to the degree of killing the leaf and the plant.

There are many species of algae, and none of these so-called "algae eating" fish will eat all of them. It can be beneficial to have something that eats some of the common green algae that will be part of the bio-film that develops on all surfaces covered by water; this is often unseen until it increases significantly, and some fish are good at eating some of this. Diatoms or brown algae is usually eaten by the fish that will graze the common green algae. Such fish include otos, Farlowella (Twig Catfish), Bristlenose plecos, Whiptail catfish, Spotted headstander, mollies, and some rift lake cichlids. Generally, any vegetarian fish is likely to eat this common algae. But not usually to the extent that it will solve problem outbreaks of algae. And none of those mentioned will eat (or it will be soo minimal as to be near zero) true "problem" algae species like brush and beard; these must be controlled by the balance of light/nutrients. [Common snails also eat algae, but again not to the extent they can clean up a problem.]

I have all of the fish I just mentioned (except Bristlenose presently) in various tanks, because I value them as a fish species in itself; I do not have them to control algae, but their effort in keeping common algae minimal is appreciated as I have live plants in all my tanks. I am careful which species goes in which tank, and how many of them, because these fish really do need to have algae in their diet. All of them will learn to eat algae-based sinking foods, but initially they tend to settle in faster and more reliably with algae present. But I am careful not to overload any tank with these fish.

Some of these have individual requirements too. The one or two species not mentioned above that will tackle problem algae (some of it anyway) get large and are unsuitable for most aquaria. Fish should never be acquired sole3ly to hopefully solve a problem; if one like this or that species, and the species has the benefit of "helping" with this or that, fine. But the fish must be provided with what it "expects," and should be a species the aquarist finds interesting as a fish.

Is 250gph diffused through 11 holes on a 10" spray bar to much? So 22gph per each hole, with just less of an inch between, so I reckon good flow, but not horrible?

I can only judge water flow by seeing it. But there are ways to minimize direct current. In my larger tanks with canister filters, the 70g is a flooded Amazon forest display, so I use the spraybar and direct the holes into the end wall on one side, and you can adjust the angle to get decent surface disturbance (which is important). The flow down the tank wall and then across the tank to the opposite end (where the intake should be positioned) will be much less forceful, than if you aim the holes down parallel to the wall. Placing solid décor like standing chunks of wood (representing tree trunks) or rock to divert the flow from the filter can also help in some situations.

There is a myth in the hobby that larger filters, or more of them, benefit. They do not. Provided the filter is suited to the tank volume, it will do the job (if maintained, and the tank is not overstocked, or mis-stocked). "More filtration" is not possible; any filter can only filter what is biologically possible, no more, so having larger filters or more of them is not going to somehow increase filtration. Biology/nature doesn't work like that.

Yes, that would be an issue. I am going to have 240 leds, ~8000 lumens, over the whole tank. However, it will be approx. 8" above the tank, with a 16" depth, so 24" diffused across a 3' tank. Are there any other schooling fish that don't have a problem with light? I read about photophobia the other day, but I thought it was only genetic in neon's and other inbred species, my bad. *Also, I really DON'T want floating plants. I find them unattractive, but if the fish need it, I'll do it.

I'm not very technical with lumens and such. My tanks all have moderate (or low) lighting that will be sufficient for the plants, plus they all have floating plants. If this or that plant won't survive, I move on to another species that will under my lighting, because the fish must come first. The plants are there to help the fish and the biological system, but are not the prime focus.

Most of our fish are forest fish and they live in dimly lit waters. This lack of light can be due to the forest canopy, marginal vegetation, or suspended particulate matter in the water. Evolution has programmed this into the fish so it must be kept in mind.

I have floating plants in all tanks, and they tend to pretty well cover the surface. Floaters are the best filtration, so that is a benefit too. But thinking only of light...I have more than once observed fish reacting when the floaters have been thinned out (they have to be, they grow so fast in my tanks) by remaining lower in the tank for several days until the floating plants are more widespread. These fish also pale in colouration when the light increases. And in a tank that might have few or no floaters at first, as soon as I add them the fish move up and out. You can achieve this with terrestrial plants over the tank, but only if they are between the light and the water obviously. We need to keep in mind that as far as fish health goes, they would be very happy with no tank lighting, just ambient light from the room windows/lights. This is not good though, because we cannot see the fish and that is why we have them. I did an experimental 10g with no filter and no tank light; I had in in front of a west facing window and the light was certainly adequate for the plants, and the fish were fine--but I could hardly see them. After a year, I moved the tank away from the window, added an overhead light and a sponge filter; not surprisingly, the fish remained down among plants for a few weeks before they would again venture out as they had without the overhead lighting.

So, we've scrapped corydoras, cardinal tetras, otos. I don't know what to do guys.

You need to decide on having a tank with fish, or a tank that is more of an aquatic garden.???? Below are photos of some of my South American aquascapes over the past few years.
 

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Fish should never be acquired sole3ly to hopefully solve a problem; if one like this or that species, and the species has the benefit of "helping" with this or that, fine. But the fish must be provided with what it "expects," and should be a species the aquarist finds interesting as a fish.
Ah, yes. That's the main problem. I'm most obsessed with Old World Cichlids and Oddballs. Parrot Fish are pretty cool too. But, they require larger tanks and are generally very disruptive and messy in planted tanks, not to mention an aquascape.
so I use the spraybar and direct the holes into the end wall on one side, and you can adjust the angle to get decent surface disturbance (which is important).
My intake will be near the bottom of the tank on the right side, and my spraybar will be on the left side facing up at a 45 degree angle, near the top. Just enough for surface disruption, but because gbr's are bottom dwellers (somewhat) it shouldn't be a problem, I don't think. Here's a diagram:
HO5H1sw.png

Placing solid décor like standing chunks of wood (representing tree trunks) or rock to divert the flow from the filter can also help in some situations.
I will have plenty of that. I'm pretty sure instead of iwaguami, I might change to a jungle style. Not necessarily sure yet, I just don't like my current hardscape.
There is a myth in the hobby that larger filters, or more of them, benefit. They do not. Provided the filter is suited to the tank volume, it will do the job (if maintained, and the tank is not overstocked, or mis-stocked). "More filtration" is not possible; any filter can only filter what is biologically possible, no more, so having larger filters or more of them is not going to somehow increase filtration. Biology/nature doesn't work like that.
Why wouldn't this be the case? More water would go through more media faster? I understand it reaches a certain point where the water is at a quality the filter can not overtake, but why is this? Just curious.
Most of our fish are forest fish and they live in dimly lit waters. This lack of light can be due to the forest canopy, marginal vegetation, or suspended particulate matter in the water. Evolution has programmed this into the fish so it must be kept in mind.
Okay, are there any floating plants that aren't extremely outstandish? Also, assuming I do try a jungle styled aquascape, would the dense placement of rocks and wood simulating a river bed provide enough shade for the fish?
You need to decide on having a tank with fish, or a tank that is more of an aquatic garden.????
Hmm. This is hard. I want more of a river bed type aquascape now. So, fish would need to add to the aesthetic, in my opinion. Thanks for the help. ~Hyr.
 
Before the questions, on your diagram, turn the spray bar into the end wall, not along the length. This also helps create a good flow down the entire tank, front to back.

Why wouldn't this be the case? More water would go through more media faster? I understand it reaches a certain point where the water is at a quality the filter can not overtake, but why is this? Just curious.

Filtration is complex. Plants filter water. Many different species of bacteria, aerobic and anaerobic, live in the substrate, on surfaces, in the filter. There are more bacteria in the substrate than the filter, in a balanced healthy aquarium. [And here I should say that all my comments on filtration assume the tank is balanced; overloading it with too many fish, or the wrong species, or overfeeding, or the wrong aquascape for the fish...all will upset the biological balance.] After all, one can have a perfectly healthy aquarium with no filter. Water circulation is the main task of a filter, or should be seen as such. The rest is more like cautionary back-up, which is not a bad thing, and may even be necessary depending upon the aquascape and fish.

Considering only nitrifying bacteria which is what most consider the filter's task, the bacteria will establish at the level to deal with the "food" and that's it. This can occur in the filter and the substrate. If the ammonia increases, the Nitrosomonas sp. bacteria will multiply accordingly; same for the Nitrospira sp. bacteria that handle nitrite. If these nitrogen compounds decrease, the bacteria do not die off but go into a sort of suspended state. [They may die off at some point, due to various factors, but that is getting us too far beyond your immediate question.]

The other thing is that the bacteria can only assimilate the ammonia/nitrite from the water if they have time. Too fast a flow of water through the filter will make the filtration almost non-existent.

So you have no benefit from larger filters, or more rapid water movement through the filter, or more filters. The biological load will require "x" filtration and that is all there will be. Now, it is possible to negatively impact this by increasing the tank load, and the filters not be sufficient to handle it. But in a balanced system, the filter suited to the tank will do all that can be done.

Another thing is filter maintenance. Left too long, all that organic matter being trapped by the filter will become detrimental; nitrate usually increases--some wrongly consider a rise in nitrate as time to do water changes or filter maintenance, but that is leaving things much too long. The damage is already occurring, and fish are feeling it.

Okay, are there any floating plants that aren't extremely outstandish? Also, assuming I do try a jungle styled aquascape, would the dense placement of rocks and wood simulating a river bed provide enough shade for the fish?

Maybe, to the last question. It is not surprising (to me anyway) that in most of the photos of Amano's beautiful aquascapes the fish are all near the bottom among the plants and decor. Light is the reason. The problem here though is that you will never see the fish if they are always trying to hide under this or that. Better to provide what they expect to enjoy them, and ensure they will be healthy.

Floating plants vary, and they are there to provide a "roof," so you can't get around that.
 
Before the questions, on your diagram, turn the spray bar into the end wall, not along the length. This also helps create a good flow down the entire tank, front to back.
Okay, will do.
Maybe, to the last question. It is not surprising (to me anyway) that in most of the photos of Amano's beautiful aquascapes the fish are all near the bottom among the plants and decor. Light is the reason. The problem here though is that you will never see the fish if they are always trying to hide under this or that. Better to provide what they expect to enjoy them, and ensure they will be healthy.
Floating plants vary, and they are there to provide a "roof," so you can't get around that.
Yes, okay. I suppose. So assuming I got a bit of shade for the fish, what stockings could I be looking at doing?
So, we're at 80F, and we have low flow.
2x Blue German Rams
5x Crystal Red Shrimp
Some type of schooling fish
Maybe an accent fish
 
Okay, will do.

Yes, okay. I suppose. So assuming I got a bit of shade for the fish, what stockings could I be looking at doing?
So, we're at 80F, and we have low flow.
2x Blue German Rams
5x Crystal Red Shrimp
Some type of schooling fish
Maybe an accent fish

The cardinal tetra are one of the best shoaling fish for warm water tanks (the light will be an issue for any of these, including the rams). Rummy nose tetra also work. The only problem here is that everything is substrate-level (rams, cardinals, rummys generally...). I could list many peaceful shoaling fish but they would all be in the lower half of the tank. Finding upper level is more difficult.

Pencilfish. Nannostomus eques is upper level, but must have floating plants or they will be petrified of the open space. A lovely fish though, swims at an oblique angle.

Hatchetfish. The Carnegiella species are best, smaller and remain right at the surface. The popular Marble Hatchetfish (Carnegiella strigata) is often available, or the more rare C. marthae.

The above are also often used with dwarf cichlids as they make excellent dither fish.

Edit. Another similar to the cardinal is the closely-related false or green neon, Parachierodon simulans. I have a shoal of these in my 40g. Equally sensitive to light of course, and not as brilliant red.
 
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I could list many peaceful shoaling fish but they would all be in the lower half of the tank. Finding upper level is more difficult.
Are there any tetras that swim throughout mostly the whole tank? Thinking of just going simple, 2x bgrs and a school of 10-15 tetras, maybe some crystal red shrimp.
 
Are there any tetras that swim throughout mostly the whole tank? Thinking of just going simple, 2x bgrs and a school of 10-15 tetras, maybe some crystal red shrimp.

The issue in all this is the temperature. Finding fish that can tolerate high heat (relatively speaking) is tricky. It is just one more criteria to match. With dwarf cichlids requiring warmth, we are looking at fish that can manage in warm water, are sedate (non-active), peaceful.

Fish that swim throughout the whole tank are few. All freshwater fish have evolved to a very specific environmental niche. When one observes fish in their habitat one sees how constant all of this actually is, even with all that space compared to the confines of even the largest aquarium. Fish that swim more "openly" tend to be more active, and with that comes more chance of possible aggressive behaviours. The other thing to keep in mind is that you have a pair of rams, and they will be happier if there is nothing in "their" space. This is one reason why pencilfish and hatchetfish are so often recommended with dwarf cichlids.

Penguin Tetra Thayeria obliqua might work. It is surface, oblique angle, peaceful, and can tolerate 80F.
 
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