Fish Stocking

So my tank has started coming together and right now all I'm waiting on is driftwood to arrive at my LFS (5 fish stores in a 30 hour drive radius from where I live and only one has drift wood on rare occasions). Once I have the driftwood I'll be planting my tank and a week or two later I'll start adding fish. Decided to go with the "silent cycle". This allows me to have a tank full of plants from the beginning.

Now my tank is 245 liters (65 gallons). Now I take away about 40 liters (10 gallons) because of substrate, Drift Wood and water height. This leaves me with 205 liters (55 gallons) of water to work with. I have two stocking lists and I can't decide which is best for this tank bioload wise. I prefer the second list included below just because I think ember tetras might not have a lot of color and their size is almost negligible.

List 1:
Mid - Top level:
Ember Tetra x20
Marble Hatchet x8
Mid - Bottom level:
Black Phantom Tetra x10
Panda Cory x14
Ghost Shrimp x5
Bristlenose Pleco x3


List 2:
Mid - Top level:
Bloodfin Tetra x15
Marble Hatchet x8
Mid - Bottom level:
Black Phantom Tetra x10
Panda Cory x14
Ghost Shrimp x6
Bristlenose Pleco x3

I assume you got soft water for those fish

I don't think neither the Ember nor the Bloddfins will stay top-middle as you suggest. Both species and the black phantoms will use the whole water column depending on the structure of the tank. The less structure and the more open the closer to the bottom they will stay. Personally, I would decide for one out of the three species and set a larger group.

I have forgotten your water parameters from other threads, but I'll continue with an assumption you have soft water.

I would increase the hatchetfish in either scenario, up to 12-15. The species in Carnegiella are not especially active, but they do like numbers.

I see no issues with List 1 (the Ember small size is up to you; I tend to agree than very small fish get lost in larger tanks, but I did have a group of 12 Ember in my 70g (roughly your 65) for some time). But no issues, and there is space for more species.

List 2 has one problem, the Bloodfins, Aphyocharax anisitsi. Forget them. Like all species in this genus they are rather feisty and prone to fin nip. And hatchets are prime targets for such fish. I've had to move a few species out of tanks with hatchets for this reason. The Bloodfins might also take it to bully other fish too, especially sedate species like the Phantoms.

If you like the basic colouring of the Bloodfins, a better choice would be the Brilliant Rummynose Tetra, Hemigrammus bleheri. They are lower-level like the Phantoms though, but have some other nice traits to more than make up for anything. They are one of the best true "schooling" characins, remaining as a group almost perpetually, and they swim more than the other fish here (except the panda cories) but not rambunctiously, so they do not pester other fish. I've had a group of these, 15-21, in with hatchets and Phantoms too, with no issues.

There is still room for one or two more species for mid-range. The hatchets in the genus Carnegiella tend to remain at the surface (unless frightened by something) so you need to be careful that nothing which might annoy them is present. I have pencilfish in with my marbles, and there are some very peaceful species (and a few hatchet-nippers to avoid) like Nannostomus eques (swims permanently at an ablique angle, close to the surface), N. marginatus (Dwarf Pencilfish) or the brilliantly coloured Coral Red Pencil N. mortenthaleri. These three are extremely peaceful. This is not an easy level to populate, as most characins that are sedate are lower level inhabitants; the upper level species tend to be more active, to the point of being rambunctious--last week I moved my Diamond Tetras out of the 70g for this very reason, and a week later it is remarkable the difference to the other fish this made, in both the 70g and in the 90g where they now reside among more active cousins. Swimming activity is not often considered, but it is very important in community tanks.

I might think of other species--so far it's been South American, there are also some of the rasbora and they tend to remain upper-mid level.

Byron.

hobby5 said:

I assume you got soft water for those fish

I don't think neither the Ember nor the Bloddfins will stay top-middle as you suggest. Both species and the black phantoms will use the whole water column depending on the structure of the tank. The less structure and the more open the closer to the bottom they will stay. Personally, I would decide for one out of the three species and set a larger group.

Click to expand...

Yes, my water parameters are as followed:
PH 7.4
Gh 8
Kh 15

I was told that Black phantoms swim towards the bottom and ember tetras towards the middle level. If this is incorrect then a large school of 25 Red Phantoms or Bloodfins would look amazing I'm sure. Red phantom as a large school I prefer because all the other fish in my stocking list are darker color so I want the school in the mid level to stand out the most.

My only issue with adding a single large school is as followed. I intend to have plants in my tank. So when adding the fish I need to add them slowly as to not have too much ammonia for the plants to take up. How would I add fish if all the fish except the marble hatchet are relatively large schools?

In reply to Byron's post, are there tetras larger than ember tetras that swim at the same level as the embers? If I have 12 Hatchets, 10 black phantoms, 15-20 ember tetras, 10rummynose tetras, 14 Panda Corys and 3 bristlenose plecos, wont adding any more schooling fish species overstock this tank?

My water parameters are in the above post and this is a South American themed tank so all the fish and plants are from South America.

Jordan_Deus said:

I was told that Black phantoms swim towards the bottom and ember tetras towards the middle level. If this is incorrect then a large school of 25 Red Phantoms or Bloodfins would look amazing I'm sure. Red phantom as a large school I prefer because all the other fish in my stocking list are darker color so I want the school in the mid level to stand out the most.

Click to expand...

Both "Phantom" species are mid to lower level fish, naturally. I have had Black Phantoms four, maybe five times, over 25 years, and now have a group of 15 Red Phantoms in my 70g. This species is rarely seen (here anyway) but what a beauty. I'll attach a photo taken this past May and you will see 9 or so of the 15 RP and note they are all in the lower half (the Rummys are there with them), which is where they have remained for the 3 years I've had them, except surfacing to feed. My Blacks were the same, as are most of the species in the "Rosy" clade of Hyphessobrycon.

My Embers have tended to be mid-tank, moving up as the mood strikes them I suppose. You don't want Bloodfins as I previously explained.

Jordan_Deus said:

My only issue with adding a single large school is as followed. I intend to have plants in my tank. So when adding the fish I need to add them slowly as to not have too much ammonia for the plants to take up. How would I add fish if all the fish except the marble hatchet are relatively large schools?

Click to expand...

This is not going to occur. Once you have plants growing, and with some faster-growers like floating (which are frankly essential with these fish being discussed) it is next to impossible to increase ammonia. You might be amazed at how much ammonia plants can take up. I have re-set tanks like my 70g and added 90-100 fish the same day with never any sign of "cycling" issues, and ammonia and nitrite have never been above zero in any of my tanks in 20 years. I have a planted 20g that is my quarantine for new acquisitions, and there have been times when 30-40 fish have gone in there in one day.

You want to add shoaling fish as a complete group whenever possible. They will settle in faster, with less stress, and any species that might have an hierarchy will establish this much more successfully.

Jordan_Deus said:

In reply to Byron's post, are there tetras larger than ember tetras that swim at the same level as the embers? If I have 12 Hatchets, 10 black phantoms, 15-20 ember tetras, 10rummynose tetras, 14 Panda Corys and 3 bristlenose plecos, wont adding any more schooling fish species overstock this tank?

Click to expand...

Last question first...no, provided the species added fit in. I would up the rummys though, this is another species that likes more company, aim for 15-17.

Many of the upper-level tetras are more active fish...Emperors, Diamonds, Kerii come to mind. There is Hemigrammus pulcher, rarely seen (I've only seen it twice in 25 years) but mid-level and peaceful. And staying South American is nice.

Well then if that's the case, how does this sound?
20 ember tetras (the larger number will hopefully make them stand out a bit more)
6 Ghost Shrimp
15 rummy nose tetras
10 black phantom tetras
12 Marble Hatchet
14 Panda Corys
3 Bristlenose Pleco

The list is representative of the order in which the fish will be added to the tank, with 3 days to a week between each schools introduction to the tank.
I may add dwarf pencil fish after I've stocked the tank with the above list, depending if I feel the top needs more fish.

P.S. Your tank is beautiful.

Jordan_Deus said:

Well then if that's the case, how does this sound?
20 ember tetras (the larger number will hopefully make them stand out a bit more)
6 Ghost Shrimp
15 rummy nose tetras
10 black phantom tetras
12 Marble Hatchet
14 Panda Corys
3 Bristlenose Pleco

The list is representative of the order in which the fish will be added to the tank, with 3 days to a week between each schools introduction to the tank.
I may add dwarf pencil fish after I've stocked the tank with the above list, depending if I feel the top needs more fish.

P.S. Your tank is beautiful.

Click to expand...

Thank you. Above sounds fine to me. The shrimp may get eaten, I've no experience with shrimp, but just mentioning it.

You want three BN pleco? Males are territorial, and you will need lots of wood. They not only need wood for hiding places to escape each other, they must graze wood for their digestive tract.

Byron said:

Thank you. Above sounds fine to me. The shrimp may get eaten, I've no experience with shrimp, but just mentioning it.

You want three BN pleco? Males are territorial, and you will need lots of wood. They not only need wood for hiding places to escape each other, they must graze wood for their digestive tract.

Click to expand...

Bristlenose are one of my favorite fish. I was thinking if I have more there's a better chance I'll see them more often. In my tank I do intend to have quite a lot of drift wood and plants so I was hoping they'd be OK. I also thought adding them into a relatively large tank at a young age would avoid the issue of them being territorial. In any case if not I can always reduce their numbers and add more Corys.

Jordan_Deus said:

Bristlenose are one of my favorite fish. I was thinking if I have more there's a better chance I'll see them more often. In my tank I do intend to have quite a lot of drift wood and plants so I was hoping they'd be OK. I also thought adding them into a relatively large tank at a young age would avoid the issue of them being territorial. In any case if not I can always reduce their numbers and add more Corys.

Click to expand...

No problem, it is your aquarium, not mine anyway...I just wanted to make sure I pointed out issues and don't mislead you. If you could get a male and two females, you would likely see spawning.

Byron said:

No problem, it is your aquarium, not mine anyway...I just wanted to make sure I pointed out issues and don't mislead you. If you could get a male and two females, you would likely see spawning.

Click to expand...

I understand, thanks for all the help. This tank is so close to fruition and I can't wait. [emoji1]

Sorry to interfere here.

What are the units of your water parameters? This looks rather hard for me. Also it is a strange, that GH is lower than KH.

I would highly recommend to leave out the rummy nose tetras. For me this is one of the most boring and over rated fish in the hobby. One large group of a single species will give a much better picture than a mix of three species, and they will mix and not stay separated. Also, this will make for much more interesting interaction within the larger group.

hobby5 said:

Sorry to interfere here.

What are the units of your water parameters? This looks rather hard for me. Also it is a strange, that GH is lower than KH.

I would highly recommend to leave out the rummy nose tetras. For me this is one of the most boring and over rated fish in the hobby. One large group of a single species will give a much better picture than a mix of three species, and they will mix and not stay separated. Also, this will make for much more interesting interaction within the larger group.

Click to expand...

It's all measured through dGH. I'll keep your recommendation in mind, thanks

Yes my KH is a bit funky but my LFS sells the fish using the same water source as I do and they all seem to be fine. I know just because the fish are OK in one tank doesn't mean they'll be OK in mine. It's just there aren't loads of dead fish at my LFS so I assume the KH is OK.

But this is hard water and not suitable for your planned stocking. The fish might currently seem happy at your LFS, but long term it will hurt them.

In every information center I can find 8 GH is considered great for the fish in this list. In one of my original posts @Byron informed me that my water is too soft for live bearers. I'm completely confused now.....

This quote is form the following website http://www.streetdirectory.com/trav...our_fish_tank___hard_water_or_soft_water.html
"Hardness is measured in "parts per million" of calcium carbonate, and the "general hardness" of the calcium (gH). "Soft water" has under 135 ppm and 4 to 8 gH, while "hard water" has more than 200 ppm and 12 to 20 gH."

It is my understanding that KH is a buffer so a higher KH will keep my PH from fluctuating, the KH itself doesn't have an effect on the fish. Is this false? Also I used a strip test kit to test my KH so there's always the possibility that I misread it.