Fertilizers and CO2 systems.

I am slowly setting up a 245 liter (approx 60 gallons) tank. I would like it to be moderately planted. I have a few questions about fertilizers and CO2 systems.
1. Is a CO2 system necessary if I'm using what are considered beginner plants and have an air rock? There is a slight percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, I'd assume this would be dissolved into the water in the form of carbonic acid by the air stone... Is this perhaps not enough carbon dioxide?

2. My substrate will be sand, now I understand that the more needed fertilizers like ammonia is given to the plants thanks to the fish. But the macro and micro nutrients aren't. Where and how do I get them? Are they in tap water?

3. I plan on attempting to aquascape the tank with a chunk of drift wood and a few rocks. I'd like to grow plants on those rocks and behind them, can anyone suggest any plants other than Java fern and moss?

4. I would like a carpet plant but seeing as I intend on keeping Cory catfish I also need to keep part of the tank unplanted. Is this possible without having to trim the plants every few days?

My water parameters are:
Gh: between 8-16 (I think it's about 8, the test strips are annoying, I'll add a picture, see if that helps)
Kh: 20 d
Ph: 7.2-7.8

Thanks in advance,
Jordan

Jordan_Deus said:

1. Is a CO2 system necessary if I'm using what are considered beginner plants and have an air rock? There is a slight percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, I'd assume this would be dissolved into the water in the form of carbonic acid by the air stone... Is this perhaps not enough carbon dioxide?

Click to expand...

It depends upon the aquarium--plant species, number of plants, fish load, and light all factor in to what nutrient supplementation may be needed, and carbon (CO2) is one of 17 required nutrients. In low-tech or natural planted tanks, which is what you seem to be aiming for, CO2 addition is not necessary. Most of the CO2 comes from the breakdown of organics by bacteria in the substrate; other CO2 occurs from the continual respiration of fish, plants and some species of bacteria. Some CO2 may enter the water from the air. All of this natural CO2 must balance the light intensity and duration, and then the other nutrients must be available. Plants photosynthesize if this balance is met.

Jordan_Deus said:

2. My substrate will be sand, now I understand that the more needed fertilizers like ammonia is given to the plants thanks to the fish. But the macro and micro nutrients aren't. Where and how do I get them? Are they in tap water?

Click to expand...

Nutrients occur from several sources. I dealt with CO2 (carbon) above; obviously hydrogen and oxygen will occur naturally without addition. So that leaves the other 14, some macro and several micro nutrients. These come from water changes (primarily the hard minerals like calcium and magnesium) and fish foods. This is why the fish load is part of the balance. Food entering the fish obviously becomes the organics in the substrate, broken down by bacteria. Sometimes, this is all you need, depending upon the source water and fish load and plant species and lighting. If you need to add nutrients, there are liquid additives and substrate tabs. I won't detail all that now or this post will be pages. But plants can only photosynthesize if everything they need is present, and the light is of sufficient intensity to drive photosynthesis (this varies depending upon plant species).

Jordan_Deus said:

3. I plan on attempting to aquascape the tank with a chunk of drift wood and a few rocks. I'd like to grow plants on those rocks and behind them, can anyone suggest any plants other than Java fern and moss?

Click to expand...

Anubias also grows attached to wood or rock. This, plus Java Fern and Java Moss, are all slow-growing plants which means they need less light and thus less nutrients. Floating plants are helpful to shade them so algae doesn't become an issue as it can on slow-growing plants in direct light.

Jordan_Deus said:

4. I would like a carpet plant but seeing as I intend on keeping Cory catfish I also need to keep part of the tank unplanted. Is this possible without having to trim the plants every few days?

Click to expand...

I mentioned the slow-growing/light issue above because here with carpet plants you are in something of a very different situation. Some of these need higher light intensity, though there are exceptions. Moderate light substrate palnts like crypts and pygmy chain sword work best; the latter will quickly spread via runners once established, the crypts the same but much, much more slowly.

With cories, it is best to have some open sand areas. My 70g has my population of 50 cories and most of the sand is open, except for the chunks of wood (the substrate is 2/3 wood) and I only have a couple pygmy chain swords. Here's a recent photo.

Byron.

Byron said:

It depends upon the aquarium--plant species, number of plants, fish load, and light all factor in to what nutrient supplementation may be needed, and carbon (CO2) is one of 17 required nutrients. In low-tech or natural planted tanks, which is what you seem to be aiming for, CO2 addition is not necessary. Most of the CO2 comes from the breakdown of organics by bacteria in the substrate; other CO2 occurs from the continual respiration of fish, plants and some species of bacteria. Some CO2 may enter the water from the air. All of this natural CO2 must balance the light intensity and duration, and then the other nutrients must be available. Plants photosynthesize if this balance is met.



Nutrients occur from several sources. I dealt with CO2 (carbon) above; obviously hydrogen and oxygen will occur naturally without addition. So that leaves the other 14, some macro and several micro nutrients. These come from water changes (primarily the hard minerals like calcium and magnesium) and fish foods. This is why the fish load is part of the balance. Food entering the fish obviously becomes the organics in the substrate, broken down by bacteria. Sometimes, this is all you need, depending upon the source water and fish load and plant species and lighting. If you need to add nutrients, there are liquid additives and substrate tabs. I won't detail all that now or this post will be pages. But plants can only photosynthesize if everything they need is present, and the light is of sufficient intensity to drive photosynthesis (this varies depending upon plant species).



Anubias also grows attached to wood or rock. This, plus Java Fern and Java Moss, are all slow-growing plants which means they need less light and thus less nutrients. Floating plants are helpful to shade them so algae doesn't become an issue as it can on slow-growing plants in direct light.



I mentioned the slow-growing/light issue above because here with carpet plants you are in something of a very different situation. Some of these need higher light intensity, though there are exceptions. Moderate light substrate palnts like crypts and pygmy chain sword work best; the latter will quickly spread via runners once established, the crypts the same but much, much more slowly.

With cories, it is best to have some open sand areas. My 70g has my population of 50 cories and most of the sand is open, except for the chunks of wood (the substrate is 2/3 wood) and I only have a couple pygmy chain swords. Here's a recent photo.

Byron.

Click to expand...

This has been very informative. What I understand is this, I should choose slow growing plants and worry about the missing nutrients after the tank is set up. Are there any moss that grow more like the moss you find on rocks outside? The Java moss is more stringy and bushy and is less attractive imo.

Jordan_Deus said:

This has been very informative. What I understand is this, I should choose slow growing plants and worry about the missing nutrients after the tank is set up. Are there any moss that grow more like the moss you find on rocks outside? The Java moss is more stringy and bushy and is less attractive imo.

Click to expand...

There are several species of moss being cultivated for aquarium use. I only have the Java Moss which arrived on some wood years ago. I like it because of its busy nature, though it does not always do this, on some wood it is more of a layer or carpet of strands on the wood. Course, might be a different moss, not sure.

When deciding on plants, the first thing you need to sort out is your lighting. Then select plants suited, with some "experiments" perhaps. Over the years I have tried many plants that just won't grow under my low/moderate lighting, so I forget them and stay with the species that have done well, some of them extremely well.

As for the nutrients, you should know your GH first. And then consider how many fish you are likely to have. I would think that in the majority of cases, a comprehensive supplement might be beneficial. Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement or Brightwell Aquatics' FlorinMulti are reliable. Dose very, very little, adding to the dose if it seems necessary, but not beyond the recommended amount as this can really be problematic. Substrate tabs (I use Flourish Tabs) can benefit larger substrate-rooted plants like swords that are heavy feeders, plus it allows you to use less liquid which the fish will appreciate, and which helps to thwart algae.

Byron.

1. Is a CO2 system necessary if I'm using what are considered beginner plants and have an air rock? There is a slight percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, I'd assume this would be dissolved into the water in the form of carbonic acid by the air stone... Is this perhaps not enough carbon dioxide?

Due to concerns about global warming CO2 levels in the air are tracked. Last week I learned it hit 410ppm. That is for outdoors with no cars or buildings nearby. In cities and indoors CO2 levels are typically higher. In water the maximum amount of CO2 that can disolve in water is 1500ppm. In water CO2 levles are typicaly higher than in the air.

As Byron mentioned fish and bacteria willl also generate CO2. Plants will consum it. For a low light aquarium CO2 levels are generally Ok. CO2 is mainly needed if high plant growth rates are desired. There is a way to check for CO2 deficiency. Check your aquariums PH in the morning just before the light turns on. Then later, just before the light turns off, check the PH again. If the last PH reading is higher your tank is running low on CO2. If the change in PH is 1 or more you should reduce the brightness or add CO2. When I saw this with bright light my PH change was 2 (maybe more). I reduced my light levels and now I don't see a change in PH.

Gh: between 8-16 (I think it's about 8, the test strips are annoying, I'll add a picture, see if that helps)
Kh: 20 d
Ph: 7.2-7.8

Click to expand...

Are these numbers from the tank or are they from you tap. If that is from your tank please send up the GH, KH, and PH reading from your tap with nothing added to it. I have never seen such a high Kh. I don't know if a level that high is safe for fish or not. For many people it normally is about less than 6.

StevenF said:

1. Is a CO2 system necessary if I'm using what are considered beginner plants and have an air rock? There is a slight percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, I'd assume this would be dissolved into the water in the form of carbonic acid by the air stone... Is this perhaps not enough carbon dioxide?

Due to concerns about global warming CO2 levels in the air are tracked. Last week I learned it hit 410ppm. That is for outdoors with no cars or buildings nearby. In cities and indoors CO2 levels are typically higher. In water the maximum amount of CO2 that can disolve in water is 1500ppm. In water CO2 levles are typicaly higher than in the air.

As Byron mentioned fish and bacteria willl also generate CO2. Plants will consum it. For a low light aquarium CO2 levels are generally Ok. CO2 is mainly needed if high plant growth rates are desired. There is a way to check for CO2 deficiency. Check your aquariums PH in the morning just before the light turns on. Then later, just before the light turns off, check the PH again. If the last PH reading is higher your tank is running low on CO2. If the change in PH is 1 or more you should reduce the brightness or add CO2. When I saw this with bright light my PH change was 2 (maybe more). I reduced my light levels and now I don't see a change in PH.



Are these numbers from the tank or are they from you tap. If that is from your tank please send up the GH, KH, and PH reading from your tap with nothing added to it. I have never seen such a high Kh. I don't know if a level that high is safe for fish or not. For many people it normally is about less than 6.

Click to expand...

That's from my tap water. A local fish hatchery where I live is raising a variety of fish in tap water. Same tap water as mine and with no additives so I assume it's safe.

Edit: I had a fishpond of rosey barbs in the yard of my last house. It tapped into the same source of tap water as I'm using now. The fish were fine. I have no idea how as I lived cycled that pond and had absolutely no idea what cycling was back then (that was a few years ago). Since then I've learned a bit and I want to make the best habitat for the inhabitants of my new aquarium. I don't think the KH will be an issue, the water where I live has a very high amount if calcium in it yet pond fish and wild fish seem to grow great in it.