Water Issues

GobyMaster11276 said:

Ok, cool. One more thing. Make sure to siphon your gravel regularly as well (assuming you decided not to use the filter).

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Yes I've been vacuuming the gravel with each water change, but also got the filter going really low by covering the outlet with a piece of panty hose. Fish seems happy with the flow!

Looking at the earlier photos, the white chunks of gravel could be calcium-based which would increase GH and pH. But the pink could be coated calcium-base as well of course. You could do a test...put a half cup or so of the gravel (rinse it under the tap) in a jar of fresh water (the bottled, not from the tank or tap) and let it sit 24 hours or longer. Test the pH. IF the bottled water is 7.2 and the jar with the gravel tests around 8, you've found the source.

If you do decide to replace the gravel, I would suggest a more neutral shade, to show off the Betta's lovely colours? This is where something like play sand works so well. I wouldn't worry about re-cycling; ordinarily this would be an issue, but here you only have one Betta and there are ways to deal with this. I would use a bacterial supplement, like Tetra's SafeStart. This plus keeping the filter will easily handle things, probably don't even need the SafeStart.

This may not be a gravel issue. regular aquarium gravel is made from rock and is typically coated with a colored epoxy. The epoxy coating prevents any calcium in the rock from interacting with the gravel. Rapid plant growth however could cause the PH to increase. First a couple of questions/ Do you use any fertilizers and is show what is the brand and name of the product.? Also I would assume you lights are on a timer. What is the water PH in the morning just before the lights turn on. Also what is the PH just before the lights turn off?

If the plants are rapidly consuming nutrients in the water the PH in the morning would be low. However as plants grow during the day the PH may increase. If the PH is changing with the lights on you could solve the problem by reducing the amount of light generated by the bulbs. Dimmer can be used with incandescent and some LED bulbs. Many fluorescent bulbs cannot be dimmed. For this you can often place something between the light and tank to block some of the light.

StevenF said:

This may not be a gravel issue. regular aquarium gravel is made from rock and is typically coated with a colored epoxy. The epoxy coating prevents any calcium in the rock from interacting with the gravel. Rapid plant growth however could cause the PH to increase. First a couple of questions/ Do you use any fertilizers and is show what is the brand and name of the product.? Also I would assume you lights are on a timer. What is the water PH in the morning just before the lights turn on. Also what is the PH just before the lights turn off?

If the plants are rapidly consuming nutrients in the water the PH in the morning would be low. However as plants grow during the day the PH may increase. If the PH is changing with the lights on you could solve the problem by reducing the amount of light generated by the bulbs. Dimmer can be used with incandescent and some LED bulbs. Many fluorescent bulbs cannot be dimmed. For this you can often place something between the light and tank to block some of the light.

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Ok wow! You're right. The pH this morning before I turned the light on is normal. Poor fish! I have not yet used fertilizer. Would that help or hurt the issue?

Also did a test with just gravel and my bottled water overnight and the pH is also normal, right around 7.2.

I would test the pH consistently over several days to be certain of the fluctuation. While a diurnal fluctuation is normal in natural waters and in planted tanks, a change from 7.2 to 8.4 seems way beyond possible. Testing pH over several days, both first thing in the morning just after tank light on (or just before), and then in the evening just before tank light out, will help.

I have fairly heavily planted tanks, with water at zero GH and KH, and I have never had significant diurnal pH fluctuations, meaning more than a couple of decimal points.

Byron said:

I would test the pH consistently over several days to be certain of the fluctuation. While a diurnal fluctuation is normal in natural waters and in planted tanks, a change from 7.2 to 8.4 seems way beyond possible. Testing pH over several days, both first thing in the morning just after tank light on (or just before), and then in the evening just before tank light out, will help.

I have fairly heavily planted tanks, with water at zero GH and KH, and I have never had significant diurnal pH fluctuations, meaning more than a couple of decimal points.

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Ok, thank you. I will do this, log it and see what I learn.

I did go ahead and change the substrate (Eco-Complete volcanic basalt) just in case it's the culprit, and put some driftwood and lava rock in. I left just a bit of the colored rock in for my daughter. I think it looks good!

IrishMom said:

Ok, thank you. I will do this, log it and see what I learn.

I did go ahead and change the substrate (Eco-Complete volcanic basalt) just in case it's the culprit, and put some driftwood and lava rock in. I left just a bit of the colored rock in for my daughter. I think it looks good!

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This substrate may raise the GH and pH, so even more important to monitor daily to see. The substrate effect though will not be fluctuating, it will just increase the GH and pH. At least probably...they do not say either way on their website, but since this substance contains minerals including calcium and magnesium, it might be expected to increase the GH and pH. It may depend upon how this substrate gets into the water; if it slowly dissolves, then the GH/pH will slowly increase.

Byron said:

This substrate may raise the GH and pH, so even more important to monitor daily to see. The substrate effect though will not be fluctuating, it will just increase the GH and pH. At least probably...they do not say either way on their website, but since this substance contains minerals including calcium and magnesium, it might be expected to increase the GH and pH. It may depend upon how this substrate gets into the water; if it slowly dissolves, then the GH/pH will slowly increase.

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Oh great - so I've probably made it worse! I had read that volcanic basalt was inert. So thought it was a good pick. Well, I'll monitor pH closely and see how it goes.

While a diurnal fluctuation is normal in natural waters and in planted tanks, a change from 7.2 to 8.4 seems way beyond possible.

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When I saw it it PH went from 6.3 in the morning to 9 12 hours later. That occurred when I started to add a sulfate GH booster to the water. I had determined I was deficient in sulfate so I started using adding a small amount of GH booster (contains calcium sulfate, Magnesium sulfate). My lighting at the was set to maximum. Incredibly I went weeks before I tested the water at night and saw the high PH. Then it took me another week to figure it out. Lost no fish. I dimmed the lights down to 40% and the change in PH is now hard to see.

Note adding fertilizer now may make it worse. The PH change is one possible effect of rapid plant growth.

IrishMom said:

Oh great - so I've probably made it worse! I had read that volcanic basalt was inert. So thought it was a good pick. Well, I'll monitor pH closely and see how it goes.

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Remember, I said "might" increase GH/pH. I know when I had Flourite it did raise the pH just a tad. But I've no idea what minerals are in Flourite compared to Eco-Complete.

Personally, I would never bother with any of these so-called plant substrates, at least not if fish are intended. In an aquatic garden with no fish, it really doesn't matter what occurs, within reason. It's the effect on fish that is the issue.

StevenF said:

When I saw it it PH went from 6.3 in the morning to 9 12 hours later. That occurred when I started to add a sulfate GH booster to the water. I had determined I was deficient in sulfate so I started using adding a small amount of GH booster (contains calcium sulfate, Magnesium sulfate). My lighting at the was set to maximum. Incredibly I went weeks before I tested the water at night and saw the high PH. Then it took me another week to figure it out. Lost no fish. I dimmed the lights down to 40% and the change in PH is now hard to see.

Note adding fertilizer now may make it worse. The PH change is one possible effect of rapid plant growth.

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I would expect a rise in GH and possibly pH using this product. That makes sense, as calcium and magnesium are the GH minerals and they will raise the GH along with the pH.

The only GH "booster" I've ever bothered with is Seachem's Equilibrium. I used this for over two years in three tanks, and the GH raised from zero to 5 or 6 dGH. The pH did not seem to be effected, though it remained in the 6's in these tanks (it lowers to 5 and perhaps lower in others).

In the OP's situation, I would recommend regular pH monitoring over a period of a couple weeks to see exactly what is happening. Overnight once may be a fluke, or a faulty test, or... whatever.

I would expect a rise in GH and possibly pH using this product. That makes sense, as calcium and magnesium are the GH minerals and they will raise the GH along with the pH.

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My GH booster is basically the same as SeaChem Equilibrium (same ingredients). When added to my RO water it will increase CH although I don't add enough to cause a significant change in GH. Probably just under one degree with the small amount I am adding. . It does not affect PH when I mix it into the RO water or add it to the tank. It is only after the lights have been on for some time will you see it rise.

The sulfate salts I am adding as well as many chloride salts does not affect PH. However when the plants are consuming sulfates faster than magnesium and calcium you can get a buildup of calcium and magnesium hydroxide. Hydroxide salts will always increase PH. PH is measure of the ration of hydrogen ions to hydroxide ions. Chloride and sulfate salts don't contain either and therefore should have zero PH affect. So as the sulfate is consumed and the hydroxides form PH will increase. Overnight the hydroxides will be converted to carbonates and carbonates which don't have hydroxide or hydrogen ions. So the PH should again drop at night. when the lights turn on in the morning the pl,ants again start consuming sulfates and carbonates and again the PH will start to change. You would also expect the KH to change. However many common aquarium test kits might not have sufficient resolution to see this. I have recently acquired a Hanna instruments Alkalinity meter which does have high resolution and I am seeing a small increase in KH between water changes and fertilization.

As stated earlier I resolved the situation by reducing light. I could have also used CO2 injection to to resolve it. but using less light was cheaper.

I believe the diurnal pH fluctuation is due to the CO2. This is how the experts described it, and they know more than I do about this.

The CO2 builds up during darkness (occurring from respiration of fish, plants and some bacteria, but primarily from the breakdown of organics) and this produces carbonic acid which lowers the pH, so it is at its lowest level in the early morning. During the day the plants photosynthesize, assimilating CO2 and releasing oxygen, at faster levels than what woould otherwise occur naturally. The uptake of CO2 is faster than it can be replaced, and they may also turn to bicarbonates (some plants use bicarbonates, others do not). The drop in CO2 creates a lessening in the production of carbonic acid. The oxygen being produced will also bind organics and minerals, and this plus the falling carbonic acid causes the pH to rise during daylight. The plants that can use bicarbonates will do so after the CO2 is exhausted, so further softening of the water occurs. During night the increasing CO2 will bind with minerals like calcium, creating bicarbonates that raise the hardness and buffering, and with organics creating carbonic acid that lowers pH.

These fluctuations should be minimal if the aquarium is biologically balanced. Water changes, filter cleanings, some substrate cleaning, can all benefit.

I'm starting to feel like one needs and advanced degree in chemistry to keep even a betta! Here's my log so far.

This is my most recent pH test, which has me very confused. Regular pH on the left and two high range pH on the right. Taken at the same time. Center vial was taken from deeper in the tank than right hand vial. How can these be so different at the same time? I must be doing something wrong.

IrishMom said:

I'm starting to feel like one needs and advanced degree in chemistry to keep even a betta! Here's my log so far.

This is my most recent pH test, which has me very confused. Regular pH on the left and two high range pH on the right. Taken at the same time. Center vial was taken from deeper in the tank than right hand vial. How can these be so different at the same time? I must be doing something wrong.

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The difference in results is due to the two different test kits being used. Once you know the "normal" pH for your source water, use the test kit suited to that pH range from then on. Think of it something like using a fahrenheit (F) thermometer and a Celsius (C) thermometer at the same time; the numbers will be different because the measuring units are different. The pH tests that are for "normal" are different from those for "high range." Stay with the appropriate range so you can see more accurate results.

As your source water (the bottled water I recall) is pH 7.2, using the "normal" not the "high" range test, use the normal test only.

To your test results in photo 1. I am not certain which is which, so could you circle the normal range test kit results? Or put a line through the high range test kit results?

Byron.