Are these Cardinal tetras okay?

Personally I would never buy a fish that hasn't been quarantined on arrival from a fish store, it is irresponsible of the seller to offer fish for sale before quarantining them.

Got a closer look and there are actually 10 living right now. Found the 3 that died overnight. I'm wondering if any will end up surviving. I'm going to do more research on setting up a quarantine tank.

StandbySetting said:

Personally I would never buy a fish that hasn't been quarantined on arrival from a fish store, it is irresponsible of the seller to offer fish for sale before quarantining them.

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All of the stores that I know of just drop their fish directly into the selling tanks without quarantining first. I had hoped to spare the fish that one transition, but now instead of the store scooping out more dead fish every day, I'm the one doing it. I didn't think it would be any different than ordering fish online but I don't have the stomach for this kind of loss. I don't think I'll ever buy them this way again.

Sorry to hear that! This is really disappointing and not normal. If they are really small they can be still less colord, yes. But on your pictures they don't seem that juvenile. It is pretty normal that they don't stay together as a group, this is nothing to worry about. Small dead fish disappear very fast in a tank, beeing eaten by the other fish, snails etc. So if you don't find them nothing to worry about either.

That they didn't color up within 1 day is imho pretty unusual. This indicates that something with the fish was very wrong or something in your tank doesn't fit. Though I have no real idea what it could be.

What are your water parameters? (One thing I could imagine, that they are totally different to the water they came in.) How did you acclimatise them?
What is your temp?
Did you feed them? Did they take anything?

StandbySetting said:

Personally I would never buy a fish that hasn't been quarantined on arrival from a fish store, it is irresponsible of the seller to offer fish for sale before quarantining them.

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It depends. I am with the OP that omitting the store tank for the fish, should save them some stress and maybe also some infections they will pick up at the store. But surely, only the strongest will survive in a stores tank. And then you buy those. And I don't know of any store quarantining their fish in separate tanks either.

Question to Byron: How are you sure those are cardinal tetras and not P. simulans (Green Neon Tetra)?

hobby5 said:

It depends. I am with the OP that omitting the store tank for the fish, should save them some stress and maybe also some infections they will pick up at the store. But surely, only the strongest will survive in a stores tank. And then you buy those. And I don't know of any store quarantining their fish in separate tanks either.

Question to Byron: How are you sure those are cardinal tetras and not P. simulans (Green Neon Tetra)?

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Before answering, a comment on the fish problem...I didn't mention this previously because it was a done deal, but I always leave new fish arrivals in the store for at least one week. I prefer the fish die in the store than in my tanks,if anything is amiss. It is true that many fish, especially these sensitive soft water species, will make it through the capture/travel but are so weakened they die when they get to their destination. [One of my best local stores gives a refund/replacement guarantee for 30 days on fish, but there is a sign that this never applies to cardinals.] Assuming these cardinals were wild caught, acclimation has to be thorough.

Now to your question, hobby5. The neon line is that of a cardinal tetra (P. axelrodi). I suspect you are thinking that the red not being bright could be P. simulans and that is true, but the iridescent line is very distinctive on the two species. On P. simulans it is perfectly straight and extends onto the caudal peduncle. I'll attach photos of P. axelrodi (Brazilian), P. axelrodi (Colombian) and P. simulans to illustrate. And a photo of P. innesi (Neon Tetra) for comparison, as it has been mentioned. I don't think I have a photo of the newly-discovered "Neon" but I'll have a look, Heiko may have included one in his article on the discovery.

Byron.

Byron said:

Before answering, a comment on the fish problem...I didn't mention this previously because it was a done deal, but I always leave new fish arrivals in the store for at least one week. I prefer the fish die in the store than in my tanks,if anything is amiss. It is true that many fish, especially these sensitive soft water species, will make it through the capture/travel but are so weakened they die when they get to their destination. [One of my best local stores gives a refund/replacement guarantee for 30 days on fish, but there is a sign that this never applies to cardinals.] Assuming these cardinals were wild caught, acclimation has to be thorough.

Now to your question, hobby5. The neon line is that of a cardinal tetra (P. axelrodi). I suspect you are thinking that the red not being bright could be P. simulans and that is true, but the iridescent line is very distinctive on the two species. On P. simulans it is perfectly straight and extends onto the caudal peduncle. I'll attach photos of P. axelrodi (Brazilian), P. axelrodi (Colombian) and P. simulans to illustrate. And a photo of P. innesi (Neon Tetra) for comparison, as it has been mentioned. I don't think I have a photo of the newly-discovered "Neon" but I'll have a look, Heiko may have included one in his article on the discovery.

Byron.

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The blue stripe is definitely most like the Brazilian. No one has their red stripe yet though. Another one is already hiding in the water sprite. That's not good. Could it be neon tetra disease?

I don't know if they were wild caught or bred. I assumed bred because this store gets their stock from segrest farms in Florida.

Lesson learned. Let them die in the store, not my tank. I was trying to do a good thing by the fish, but it doesn't seem to have made a difference.

BeckyCats said:

The blue stripe is definitely most like the Brazilian. No one has their red stripe yet though. Another one is already hiding in the water sprite. That's not good. Could it be neon tetra disease?

I don't know if they were wild caught or bred. I assumed bred because this store gets their stock from segrest farms in Florida.

Lesson learned. Let them die in the store, not my tank. I was trying to do a good thing by the fish, but it doesn't seem to have made a difference.

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I would check the store tank (presumably they still have other cardinals from this shipment) and tell them what is occurring and find out their situation, if they are losing any. And they may/should replace those that die on you unless they determine it was your fault (not saying it was, but they may).

I would doubt that Segrest Farms is breeding cardinals, but they may be. More likely they are importing them from Brazil and then sell them on. This is a common practice in SE Asian farms too.

I would not jump to conclusions about neon tetra disease. What is more likely is either an acclimation issue, or an internal protozoan. Knowing how the store's cardinals are faring would help narrow this down.

Byron.

@OP You didn't tell us about your water parameters and how you acclimatised the fish?

To be honest I would rule out neon tetra disease or say imho very unlikely. This disease is progressing slowly and rarely hitting many fish at once in such a short time. Also there is no heavy breathing involved as far as I know.

Just following up from my post #21 with photos of the newly discovered species of "Neon," in case some are interested. I scanned these from my photocopy of the article in TFH so the quality is not the best. The article is A Story of Four Neon Tetras, Part Two: And Now a Fourth Neon! written by Heiko Bleher, the discoverer of this species, in Tropical Fish Hobbyist, October 2008 [Part One on the existing species P. axelrodi, P. simulans and P. innesi is in the September 2008 TFH]. This new species has not to my knowledge been described and named, so for the present it is known as Paracheirodon sp.

This fourth neon is closest in appearance to the true Neon Tetra, P. innesi, differing according to Heiko by the following:
(1) the red is brighter and extends around the caudal peduncle, into the caudal fin, and in arrow form into the silver at the front of the body;
(2) the neon stripe ends at the adipose fin (on the true Neon it ends before this fin);
(3) the dorsal fin is smaller, having 10 to 11 rays compared to the true Neon's 12 to 13), as is the anal fin (19-21 vs 22-24 respectively);
(4) the eyes are larger, possibly an adaptation to the very dark jungle creek habitat. This new species is found 1000 km (621 miles) east of the only known habitat of the true Neon which is in the quebradas of Peru. [quebradas is Spanish for mountain ravine, gorge, gully.]

Byron.

hobby5 said:

@OP You didn't tell us about your water parameters and how you acclimatised the fish?

To be honest I would rule out neon tetra disease or say imho very unlikely. This disease is progressing slowly and rarely hitting many fish at once in such a short time. Also there is no heavy breathing involved as far as I know.

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55 gallon, soft water, pH around 6.0 - 6.5 (reading 6.4 right now), water changes done once a week mostly, ammonia, nitrites always zero, nitrates barely register usually, but occasionally get as high as 10 ppm although not since the cardinals have been in. Lots of plants. Sand substrate.

I acclimated the fish to the tank water by the usual method of adding the new water to their existing water slowly over an hour. I did put a drop of prime in the bucket to neutralize any ammonia that was undoubtedly in their bagged water from their travels. I used the same method I always use for new fish and never had this issue.

None of the existing fish are showing any signs of disease/illness/distress. I brought a sample of the tank water to the store when I returned the last batch (it is a requirement of their refund policy) and they agreed that the water quality is excellent and not to blame.

As of this morning, there was another dead one and an additional that I'm sure will be dead by the time I get home from work. At this point, I am seriously concerned that ANY will survive. They still haven't colored up either.

Byron said:

I would check the store tank (presumably they still have other cardinals from this shipment) and tell them what is occurring and find out their situation, if they are losing any. And they may/should replace those that die on you unless they determine it was your fault (not saying it was, but they may).

I would doubt that Segrest Farms is breeding cardinals, but they may be. More likely they are importing them from Brazil and then sell them on. This is a common practice in SE Asian farms too.

I would not jump to conclusions about neon tetra disease. What is more likely is either an acclimation issue, or an internal protozoan. Knowing how the store's cardinals are faring would help narrow this down.

Byron.

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This store does have a return policy. I'm not sure how many days out it goes. They want to test a sample of your tank water as part of the return policy, which I think is fair. I have 5 more to bring them tonight when I get home from work.

Regarding the condition of the others at the store, they don't have any others from that shipment. They only ordered 20, which were all bagged together, and I took them all.

I did not know that chain stores sold wild-caught fish. I will have to be more careful from now on and ask. I'm glad you told me.

BeckyCats said:

This store does have a return policy. I'm not sure how many days out it goes. They want to test a sample of your tank water as part of the return policy, which I think is fair. I have 5 more to bring them tonight when I get home from work.

Regarding the condition of the others at the store, they don't have any others from that shipment. They only ordered 20, which were all bagged together, and I took them all.

I did not know that chain stores sold wild-caught fish. I will have to be more careful from now on and ask. I'm glad you told me.

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It is a bit off topic, but on your last comment...chain stores (so far as I know) have a supplier for all the stores in the chain. They would not individually import fish...though there may be an exception, but I think it unlikely given the costs and effort involved. But the wholesale supplier might have different sources for their fish. Sadly, the store staff would probably not have the least idea if the fish were wild or tank raised. Nor much else unfortunately.

I have a Petland store near me, part of a chain in Canada, and they have often received some quite rare fish that definitely were wild caught. These came however from their wholesale supplier, as I said above. When I/you see species like Paracheirodon simulans, Characidium fasciatum, Hemigrammus pulcher, Corydoras schwartzi, etc, you can be assured they are wild caught and not tank raised fish. I never buy from this store, as almost every fish I have acquired over the years has had some disease. Many died in QT, and those that survived showed clear signs of problems and a shorter life span. Several weeks of QT didn't catch the issues, which according to a microbiologist friend was likely internal protozoan that would only be detected with internal examination by a microbiologist. I just wrote the store off completely and won't even walk in the door any longer. Same with Petsmart.

Byron said:

It is a bit off topic, but on your last comment...chain stores (so far as I know) have a supplier for all the stores in the chain. They would not individually import fish...though there may be an exception, but I think it unlikely given the costs and effort involved. But the wholesale supplier might have different sources for their fish. Sadly, the store staff would probably not have the least idea if the fish were wild or tank raised. Nor much else unfortunately.

I have a Petland store near me, part of a chain in Canada, and they have often received some quite rare fish that definitely were wild caught. These came however from their wholesale supplier, as I said above. When I/you see species like Paracheirodon simulans, Characidium fasciatum, Hemigrammus pulcher, Corydoras schwartzi, etc, you can be assured they are wild caught and not tank raised fish. I never buy from this store, as almost every fish I have acquired over the years has had some disease. Many died in QT, and those that survived showed clear signs of problems and a shorter life span. Several weeks of QT didn't catch the issues, which according to a microbiologist friend was likely internal protozoan that would only be detected with internal examination by a microbiologist. I just wrote the store off completely and won't even walk in the door any longer. Same with Petsmart.

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Are cardinal tetras usually wild caught as well? I prefer not to buy wild caught fish. It makes me sad to think that these fish used to be swimming around in their natural home, doing their thing, and then were trapped, transported, and traumatized, just so that I can have some pretty fish in my tank. I'm not making judgements against anyone who chooses to buy wild-caught fish, but for me, it is not a choice I feel good about. As you say, it is a bit off topic, but I appreciate your knowledge and experience with all this and when all this is over and the dust settles, so to speak, I would like to try getting cardinals again. However, if most are wild caught, I will look for something else.

BeckyCats said:

Are cardinal tetras usually wild caught as well? I prefer not to buy wild caught fish. It makes me sad to think that these fish used to be swimming around in their natural home, doing their thing, and then were trapped, transported, and traumatized, just so that I can have some pretty fish in my tank. I'm not making judgements against anyone who chooses to buy wild-caught fish, but for me, it is not a choice I feel good about. As you say, it is a bit off topic, but I appreciate your knowledge and experience with all this and when all this is over and the dust settles, so to speak, I would like to try getting cardinals again. However, if most are wild caught, I will look for something else.

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In North America, cardinals will usually be wild caught. In Europe, I believe they have tank-raised fish from the Czech Republic and perhaps other places now, but I know the Czech were breeding cardinals a decade or so ago. I have rarely seen "tank-raised cardinals" advertised locally, so I assume most here (in NA) are wild.

Now, on the matter of wild caught fish, this is a concern many share, that we may be depleting wild stocks by over collecting. And while this is likely to have occurred with a very few species, it really is not significant in most cases. Destruction of the natural habitats is progressing alarmingly rapidly in some areas, particularly in SE Asia more than in South America. And this is a far greater disaster for the fish. There are most assuredly fish species that will be extinct before we have ever discovered them.

Most countries in SA have laws regarding the time of year when specific species can be collected, and if these are followed, the species should not be threatened. Aside from this, there is also the Project Piaba. This has been operating for several years now, and the idea behind it is that the resident peoples can make a decent living collecting ornamental fish, and this means they will not be cutting down the forest for agriculture. All this destruction of the rainforest is a very serious problem, and providing economic stability to the people while preserving the environment is well worth it. And not surprisingly, the locals know how many fish they can catch without depleting the species, and since it is their livlihood for many years to come, they are careful to be environmentally sound, Of course, if no one buys their fish, the idea will soon peter out, so there is a good reason to acquire wild caught fish.

Here's more on the Project Piaba:
http://projectpiaba.org/