Curse You Fish Tank Kings!

So I caught my wife watching fish tank kings and it turns out she has her heart set on a marine tank.
We are totaly new to marine fish keeping but we have 2 fresh water tanks which have been no problems, apart from an outbreak of columnaris a while ago. I keep a male betta in a 50ltr and female bettas in a 62ltr. These fish are in my opinion easy to keep, I have bred them to.
I am led to believe saltwater fishkeeping is tough and can be expensive. I have read a bit on line but I dont really know what you need.
We want to keep 2 clown fish(small ones) a hermit crab and shrimp. We also want coral and anenomes and for it all to be nice and bright.
In a nutshell; Tank size? equipment? rough cost?

these are my tanks

i wouldnt say its tough, you just need to research and know what your doing, but you need to do that with freshwater or any type of hobby....its alot more work than freshwater.....and expensive???.....YES!!!!!

Set aside £1000 and you can put a basic reef tank together. Without any stock of course.

Well, you ask a few long/complicated questions.

Saltwater fish can  be easier and some can be tougher than FW fish.  

Ask yourself a few questions: Do you have access to Reverse Osmosis/Deionized water?  Are you willing to have a bare tank with just rock for 2-5 months?  Are you willing to test the water on a regular basis.

There are also several schools of though on marine tanks.  There are bare bottom highly sterile tanks that rely heavily on protien skimming to maintain water quality.  There are also deep sand beds and NNR (natural nitrate reduction) which rely on macro algaes and micro fauna (worms, copepods, amphipods, assorted bacteria and bacteria-like organisms)  to maintain water quality.

I personally subscribe to the the NNR school and run a Jaubert inspired system (you can read about it here http/www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/aafeature )

Do you wan't a refugium/sump?  I would advise you have one.  Not only does it provide a place to house equipment (keeping your display clutter free) but it also provides a space for dendriteavores and macro-algae.

If you wanted to have a fish only (fish only means no coral or anemones) tank with no sump you are looking at roughly 100-150 USD (includes the cost of sand (4-6"), live rock (20-30lbs), source of water movement, coral inappropriate lighting, heater, and thermostat for a 30g tank.)

Seeing as how you want a fish-focused tank you would want a protein skimmer and a sump to house the skimmer you are looking at a cost of the 100-150 already outlined for the DT and add on roughly 100-150 USD for a good protein skimmer (you can literally spend up to $800 on a skimmer alone) + 50 for a return pump and roughly $20-50 for the sump tank (a regular 20gallon aquarium will do).

Edit: not to mention you will want GOOD water tests so set aside roughly $100 for salifert and or Red Sea test kits.  Tests for: ammonia, nitrate, carbonate hardness, pH (high range 7.0-10.0), calcium (you want this even though you don't have corals), magnesium, and phosphates are the major ones you need but you may find you want to test for iron, iodine, potassium, copper and oxygen later on.

Thanks gregswimm, this is what I am needing to know. I would ask in my lfs but cant be sure if the info would be straight up, I have heard them give some pretty suspect information to parents of wide eyed kids with brand new tanks ang bags full of fish.
I am thinking of something more on the nano side of things, is this possible with my fish choice?
One more question I am fully aware of the need to cycle freshwater tanks fully, so how come the fish tank kings can set up and stock a large aquarium in next to no time?

I've watched that program a couple of times & to answer your question 372 it's because imo they really don't care about the fish, it's all about those fake corals they build.
I saw one where they did a tank as part of a skateboard ramp, poor fish, they're sensitive to vibration, imagine the stress they're under every time a skateboard hits that ramp.
Yes you could have a nano but even they're expensive to start up & water quality is much more of an issue the smaller the tank, someone once said to me matine tanks are lovely but they'll suck every penny out of your wallet, they were right.

Lilfishy said:

I've watched that program a couple of times & to answer your question 372 it's because imo they really don't care about the fish, it's all about those fake corals they build.
I saw one where they did a tank as part of a skateboard ramp, poor fish, they're sensitive to vibration, imagine the stress they're under every time a skateboard hits that ramp.
Yes you could have a nano but even they're expensive to start up & water quality is much more of an issue the smaller the tank, someone once said to me matine tanks are lovely but they'll suck every penny out of your wallet, they were right.

Click to expand...

I think that programme was called tanked, however point taken.
Back to the matter in hand; cycling? Or no.
Is 60ltr enough?
I am going to lfs marine tommorow to look at equipment,I know I will probably get it cheaper on line, because I dont even know what a protein skimmer looks like let alone if I will need one.

If you want fish in your tank you are going to want a protein skimmer.  Protein skimmers aka foam fractioners are more or less bubble towers.  The water flows through the tower and bubbles are pumed in via various methods.  Organics in the water (wastes as well as planktonic organisms) 'sick' to the bubbles and foam out of the top of the tower.  This helps keep the water very very clean but has a drawback of removing food that filterfeeders rely on (ie nonphotosynthetic clams, sponges, feather duster worms, and nonphotosynthetic corals).


Cycling is a MUCH longer process in saltwater vs fresh.  There is substantially more life in a saltwater tank vs a freshwater tank ~70-90% of which you will never see and never know is there.  The vast majority of life comes from live rock (cultured rock or gathered rock straight from the ocean).  During shipping and holding of the rock there is going to be much death on the rock.  This means lots of ammonia production, so you have to wait for this to stop and reach an equilibrium.  This is the 'curing' phase and can take as long as 6-7 months (sometimes longer depending on your tank conditions and how fresh the rock is).  In this phase you only have a few crabs and snails in the tank to help clear up some of the die off and keep algae at bay while you keep parameters in the safe zones with water changes and dosing various supplements (calcium, magnesium, carbon, carbonate, etc).  You will also be growing essential micro fauna during this time.

If you rush the cure, you are going to be wasting lots of money, the vast majority of corals and fish won't survive a cure/cycle.

Also 60L is TINY.  People do it but it is more work.  200L display is a good size to start with, it is easier to stock and your parameters wont swing around nearly as much.


Also, take everything they tell you at the LFS with a bag of salt.  IME most of the people at the LFS are trying to sell you something.  Run what they tell you by us and we can help you along.  You get to listen to us bicker about husbandry methods (which are many and varied) lol.

so am I better off buying live rock off someone who is breaking up a tank as i cant be sure how long it has been in the lfs?
200ltrs would be great but we dont have the space for it. I have done a bit of research into smaller tanks and I think it is more realistic for us as I am on a relatively low wage and generally the hardware is cheaper the smller it is.

LR from a tank break down would be great.  Most people who have a reef tank take the time to pick off the bad hitchhikers.  I personally prefer curing my own, I like to watch the rock change over time.

I run a 113L display tank with a 76L refugium.  When I added the refugium I noticed a drastic change in parameter stability.  The 113L is a pain to stock and find fish small enough for it, a 3" (7.5 cm) pygmy angel fish (cherub angel to be specific) is already too big for the tank. 

2-3 A. percula would be fine for a 150L.  That may max you out, depending on how they are behaving. 

Thanks gregswimm, man I thought 60 ltrs for my male betta and his 5 wcm minnows was more than enough space! So you can imagine I was mildly surprised that a 750mm fish was too big for a 113L tank.
Refugium? Is that like a sump or something? I think I need to do way more research!

Ya, a refugium is like a sump but instead of being used to house equipment it is used to house algae and some animals (often detritivores).  Some people even used them as a frag area.  Think of it as a 'refuge'. 

Thanks, I have 2 spare tanks which would be ideal for one of these.
Just got offered a fluval 190 litre tank for 100£ any good?

yeah thats good

2 qestions.  Does it hold water and does it have a pre drilled overflow.  If the answer to the first question is yes then its not a bad deal.


Just dont do this for filtration, god its a bad idea especially if the drain leads to a sump (when your power cuts out your tank will drain to the overflow, you will get a LOT of water on your floor; when/if you set up an overflow put it no lower than 2" under the water level.  Calculate the volume of the first 2" of space in your tank and provide the calculated volume of empty volume in your sump.)  Canisters aren't quite as useful for SW as they are for FW unless you want to set up some cryptic filtration.



Read this
http/reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/newbie/index.php

Read it