Phil's Fishless Cycle

Hi

Just got a couple of questions that I'm struggling for answers for - thanks first of all to all the folks on this forum who have indirectly helped me with their answers to other peoples questions! My brother used to have a tropical aquarium in Botswana many years ago - nearest place that sold fish was 3hrs away (not really a local fish shop!) and had more problems keeping the temperature down than up!! Decided to have another crack at keeping fish so been trying to resurrect any knowledge I had acquired although it seems that fish keeping has moved on quite a lot since then.

I decided on a Juwel Rio 125 (see attached photo) which I bought from Angelfishaquatics (not sure if I'm allowed to name drop but they were v helpful). I began cycling on the 19th June using the add & wait method with Ammonia around 4ppm. Using the API Freshwater Master Kit to test. PH around 7.8 / 8.0

I bought 4 live plants on the 2nd July and added them and they've grown well - Amazon Sword, Cabomba, Water Wisteria and another plant which I'm not sure of.

Nitrites finally showing in the tank on the 5th July quickly followed by Nitrates on the 7th July. The attached photo was taken today.

First couple of questions I have are listed below although I'm sure that as I go on I'll have more!

- I've read up about fishless cycling but can't seem to get a clear answer on whether or not I should do a water change during the cycling period. Is one needed to prevent the cycle stalling or is it ok to have high nitrites and nitrates since its a fishless cycle?

- The plants I've added are growing pretty rapidly (especially Cabomba and Water Wisteria). I added some JLB Kugeln balls when I first put them in (just bunched plants) which seems to have helped the growth spurt. The question is whether or not I need to go down the CO2 route if the plants are doing ok? I don't intend on having any more plants at the moment as I would rather not have to get more equipment (diffusers etc) to worry about at this stage. From what I understand CO2 diffusers are just to boost the plant growth in planted tanks but since they are growing fast enough am I ok without one? Do they have other uses as well?

Will save the remaining questions for later since they are not urgent at the moment....

Thanks in advance for any help you can give

Phil

Couple of photos below - also my log is a few posts down which I'll update....

7th July - plants added on the 2nd July


15th July showing the plant growth in a week

Very nice looking tank. I love the Rio's, have one myself.

Water change? Usualy we do a massive one at the very end of the cycle to remove the huge Nitrates thst will be produced by your N-bacs.

Do you have a chart or daily/weekly test results for us to look over? That would be very helpfull.

Thanks....

Not really been keeping a chart (too lazy!) but from memory it would've shown the following:

From 19th June to the 5th July - Ammonia was around 4ppm with Nitrites and Nitrates 0ppm
5th July (Day 17) - Ammonia 2ppm Nitrites 0.25ppm Nitrate 0ppm
6th July (Day 18) - Ammonia 0.25ppm Nitrites 1.0ppm Nitrate 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)

Will try and keep a record from now on if that helps....presume the fluctuations in Nitrate are my inaccurate readings as opposed to it actually going up and down in level unless the plants are using some of it up? Also got a small amount of algae on the glass and quite a bit on the mopani wood if that makes any difference (fluffy brown stuff thats been there for two weeks)...

PH - 7.8 to 8.0
Temp - 30C
Lights - 2x28W initially on for 9hrs once I added plants but reduced to 6hrs
Ammonia - Boots Household Ammonia (500ml for 45p on special - bargain!)
Test Kit - API Master Test Kit

7th July (Day 19) - Ammonia 1ppm Nitrites 2.0 or 5.0ppm Nitrate 5.0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
8th July (Day 20) - Ammonia 0.25ppm Nitrites >5.0ppm Nitrate 10 or 20ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
9th July (Day 21) - Ammonia 0.25ppm Nitrites >5.0ppm Nitrate not tested (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
10th July (Day 22) - Ammonia 0.25ppm Nitrites >5.0ppm Nitrates off the chart after leaving for 12hrs - forgot to check after 5mins! - (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
11th July (Day 23) - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites >5.0ppm Nitrates 5ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
12th July (Day 24) - Ammonia 0-0.25ppm Nitrites >5.0ppm Nitrates 10 or 20ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
13th July (Day 25) - Ammonia 0-0.25ppm Nitrites >5.0ppm Nitrates 20ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 2ppm)
14th July (Day 26) - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites >5.0ppm Nitrates 20ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 3ppm)
15th July (Day 27) - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites >5.0ppm Nitrates >80ppm (forgot to dose Ammonia until the next morning up to 3ppm)
16th July (Day 28) - Ammonia 0.25ppm Nitrites 2-5ppm Nitrates >80ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 2ppm)

17th July - (Day 29) AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0.25ppm Nitrates >80ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 1ppm to give them some food!)
17th July - (Day 29) PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm Nitrates >80ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
18th July - (Day 30) 8AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 5ppm Nitrates >80ppm
18th July - (Day 30) 6PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
19th July - (Day 31) 8AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 2-5ppm Nitrates >80ppm
19th July - (Day 31) 9PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
20th July - (Day 32) 6AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 2-5ppm Nitrates >80ppm
20th July - (Day 32) 8PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
21st July - (Day 33) 7AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 2-5ppm Nitrates >80ppm
21st July - (Day 33) 6PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
22nd July - (Day 34) 8AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 2-5ppm Nitrates >80ppm
22nd July - (Day 34) 9PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
23rd July - (Day 35) 9AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 2ppm Nitrates Not tested
23rd July - (Day 35) 9PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
24th July - (Day 36) 9AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 2ppm Nitrates Not tested
24th July - (Day 36) 7PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
25th July - (Day 37) 8AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 1ppm Nitrates Not tested
25th July - (Day 37) 7PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
26th July - (Day 38) 7AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0.25ppm Nitrates Not tested
26th July - (Day 38) 7PM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm (dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)
27th July - (Day 39) 7AM - Ammonia 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm Nitrates Not tested
27th July - (Day 39) 9PM - Ammonia Not tested Nitrites Not tested (did a 30% PWC then dosed Ammonia up to 4ppm)

P.S Thanks to L_Plate for the idea of doing a colour chart to make it clearer to read....

Only really need to do a massive water change if you seem to be stalling (one reason would be nitrate levels going too high) then one at the end to reset the system for the fish.
I'd only go to co2 if the plants needed it and you seem to be ripping away there so I'd hold off till your not happy with the growth or want to grow something more demanding.
Miles

Wow your tank is absolutely gorgeous!

So many conflicting opinions on these forums,
plants +light+ammonia = algae,
many times i have read on these forums not to have plants while you do fishless cycling.
Over on the planted tank forums they say why bother with a fishless cycle if you have a planted tank,
very confusing and who's right?
waiting for someone to come up with that old chesnut "well it's not a perfect science"
To me it sounds like their is no proper way to cycle a tank
its take your chance and hope for the best.

not so much a lack of proper way to cycle a tank festo as different approaches. Some clarity here might be useful for you:
1) the planted tank approach (so called silent cycling) where you have a massive number of plants (more than 75% of the substrate planted) is not advocated for beginners, even on the planted section, I assume this is because it can be difficult to spot something going south till it's already bad
2) then there is the difference between fish in and fishless - very different approaches and really down to personal preference / fear of error damaging the fish

Does this help?

Once you have decided to go for the fishless (or fish in) approach there is some very clear straightforward advice in the beginner section - there are subtleties (e.g. do I need to do a water change) which people need to consider however the basic approach is clearly stated and seems to work. I prefer to follow a tried and tested method however there are always going to be people that disagree with stuff and sometimes they may forge a new and better path but so far the advice here seems to be sound.

Miles

Miles_hot said:

Only really need to do a massive water change if you seem to be stalling (one reason would be nitrate levels going too high) then one at the end to reset the system for the fish.
I'd only go to co2 if the plants needed it and you seem to be ripping away there so I'd hold off till your not happy with the growth or want to grow something more demanding.
Miles

Click to expand...

Thanks for all your comments and posts.....

Just two quick questions:

- How would I know if the cycle has stalled?

- Is there a reason why the plants (Cabomba in particular) seem to grow more over night or is that just my imagination?! Seems like when the light comes on in the morning they have grown but when I get in from work in the evening theres no change from the morning!

Thanks again,

Phil

A stalled cycle is when you see no movement in nitrites. You have had nitrites off the scale for a while, seemingly. A water change wouldn't be a bad move, but it also may not be necessary. The key to doing a water change in a fishless cycle is that the water change itself can actually disrupt the bacteria a bit and actually cause a pause. If the cycle is stalled, it may happen because certain trace elements may have been used up that we don't test for that the bacteria need, or the pH could have crashed due to a buildup of nitrates, or any number of other reasons that we just haven't figured out.


If you wanted to do a water change, that would be fine. It would actually be helpful in one respect to decrease the nitrite value. HIgher nitrite values may encourage the growth of the wrong kind of bacteria. At the very least, you should drop your daily dose of ammonia to 2-3ppm until the nitrite values come back onto the scale. The lower dose will continue to allow the ammonia bacteria to grow, but it won't prompt the creation of as much nitrite as the bigger dose. The ammonia bacs will bounce back when you up the dose again once the nitrites are back on the scale again.

Thanks for your advice - I can't actually do a water change until the weekend so will probably just reduce the dosage to 2ppm as you suggest from now until then and see how the nitrites respond....

I'm still getting PH of around 7.8 and I did add quarter of a flake of fish food a few days ago to try and add some trace elements as I'd seen this recommended on one of the forums.

Hi,

Nitrites seem to have come down a bit which I'm assuming is down to adding slightly less ammonia the last few days.....

On a separate note - how long can the bacteria go without getting their 'feed' of ammonia? I forgot to dose Ammonia last night so they went around 36hrs since I last dosed it to 3ppm on Thurs night. Guess it was only around 24hrs without Ammonia but just wondering if that would kill any bacteria off? Hope not!

Phil

Added 2ppm Ammonia last night and nitrites this morning are at 0.25ppm with ammonia close to 0ppm. I'm assuming then that the 36hour fast didn't do too much damage (!).....

What should I be doing now - still dosing once every 24hrs or should I top up the ammonia to around 2ppm each time it gets down to 0? Now that the nitrites are back on the scale should I be increasing the dosage to 4ppm again?

Thanks in advance for your help

Phil

Double zero for the first time - hopefully on the home straight although this was based on ammonia @ 2ppm.....gone back up to 4ppm so will see what its like in the morning.

Was cleaning out some of the algae in the tank and noticed a tiny snail (<1cm) - first one I've seen. This raised a couple of questions:

- Do all snails eat algae?

- How fast do they reproduce (mind you I can only see one little fella but I'm assuming there were more eggs)

- How long before the eggs hatch? I'm curious as I bought the plants on the 2nd July which is two weeks ago and I thought they hatched quicker than that?

- Do they climb out of the tank? Don't really fancy snails all over the house!!

I'll try and get a picture of him if/when he gets a little bigger so I can identify what type of snail he is.

At least there's some life in my tank now!

Double zeros again so 4ppm ammonia processed in under 24hrs....now to target 12hrs!

Here's a photo of my snail as promised....is it a pond snail?

Still no sign of any others just this little guy wandering round the tank!

Incidentally while I'm at it could anyone comment on the gravel I've got in and whether this would be suitable for Cory's at all? I've heard that they need smooth rounded gravel and I'm not sure if this is ok?

Thanks,

Phil