Betta Splendens Unknown Illness...need Help!

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 11, 2011

Tank size:10G
pH:7.0-7.5
ammonia:safe
nitrite:0-0.5
nitrate:0-20
kH:240
gH:30
tank temp:82 degrees

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):Grayish colored patches no bigger than a couple or so scales on body and mostly on head. I would say there are about 10 of these patches. They are slightly raised but don't seem to be hairy like fungus. These were the only symptoms at first but now his front fins(the ones he swims with) appear to have fin rot. I noticed these symptoms when I had him in just a small jar. Now he's in a 10G tank bare to get him well hopefully. He's always been VERY spunky, the most spunky Betta I've ever had and still is so I hope that's a good sign. He doesn't really "act" sick because he still eats well and is very active. I thought this was ick at first and have just treated the tank with the last dose of Maracyn. I've also been putting a teaspoon of MelaFix in daily to aid him. There are also 2 tablespoons of AP aquarium salt in the water as I have read this helps. Like I said, I noticed these symptoms when he was in just a small vase and bought a 10G tank because I didn't know how I was going to be able to properly dose the medicines in the small vase. I'm sorry, but I haven't gotten a water test kit yet. I figured since he was a Betta and they're typically hardy that he would be fine in this new tank and be able to withstand the nitrogen cycle since Bettas in bowls and such have their water changed regularly and completely. Please don't grill me for not being on point with everything. I know I'm not.....I mainly just want a diagnosis of what he has so I can get him better and set up his tank properly. I upped his temperature from around the mid 70's to 82 since I thought this was ich and it would help the parasites life cycle to shorten. The spots aren't going away, and it really doesn't look like ick, but I haven't seen any photos that look like what he has. I have a filter circulating the water, but don't have the cartridge in because of treatment purposes. Using an Aqueon 10G filter with no cartridge.

Volume and Frequency of water changes:no water change yet

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:no media, dosed 2 caps of Maricyn every other day in the past 6 days as instructed, 2 tablespoons of AP salt in tank, 1 teaspoon of MelaFix daily for the past 3 days

Tank inhabitants: 1 Betta

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): none

Exposure to chemicals:

Digital photo (include if possible): can't get a good photo

Randomitity · Apr 11, 2011

Sounds like fungal infection waterchanges should help and just as a warning Melafix may coat your bettas gills causing them not to breath

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 12, 2011

Randomitity said:
Sounds like fungal infection waterchanges should help and just as a warning Melafix may coat your bettas gills causing them not to breath

That's what I've been suspecting also. Some sort of fungal infection. Does the Jungle brand fungus medication work well? I'm going to go ahead and do a large water change since I haven't had any filter cartridge in place since I've set the tank up. Thank you for your help. Please keep posting guys, I'm all ears.

lilfishie · Apr 15, 2011

hows he doing? with no filter you need to be doing water changes daily or every other day, try and buy/borrow? a test kit as we really do need the levels.

with any fungus/finrot fresh clean water is the best thing for it :good:

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 16, 2011

lilfishie said:
hows he doing? with no filter you need to be doing water changes daily or every other day, try and buy/borrow? a test kit as we really do need the levels.

with any fungus/finrot fresh clean water is the best thing for it

I bought an API strip test kit a couple nights ago and here are the readings....GH 30...KH 240...PH 7.0-7.5...NO2 0-0.5...NO3 0-20. I also have a SeaChem "live" ammonia tester and it reads safe on ammonia levels. My KH is reading really high and would indicate that my PH should also possibly be high, but it doesn't read high on the API test strip. However, I also brought in a sample of the water to PetsMart when I went and the Jungle test strips showed the PH to be around 8, so I don't know which it is. He's actually doing GREAT! Well, his behavior is anyways. He doesn't act like he's sick whatsoever. He never has. He's a ferocious feeder and very active even with his frayed side fins. He swims about the tank like nothing's wrong. He's been a very healthy fish since I got him several months ago. I bought some Jungle Fungus Clear Tank Buddies and have treated the tank with that Thursday evening and it says not to perform a water change until the 4th day and then you can retreat. He still has the spots, but I don't think they're as bad. I DID notice the next day after I had treated the tank that he seemed to have some cloudy looking slime falling off the front of his body. I don't know if it was fungus or what. I'm baffled still by what he actually has because he appears healthy except for the spots. He definitely has fin rot though, but I'm not sure if the fin rot is a secondary illness brought about by what he already has. The few spots he does have are smooth and cloudy(or gray) as well as slightly raised, but they are larger than an ich spot. I haven't seen a picture of what he has on him yet. I'm suspecting columnaris, but I'm not sure. Ok guys, I appreciate y'all's help with this!

loraxchick · Apr 17, 2011

I dont think it is any sort of illness rather overproduction of slimecoat from nitrite/ammonia in the water. You need to do a large waterchange now70-80%, and do smaller ones20%or so every other day until your tank is cycled. Hopefully you've put a cartridge in the filter and will have to keep up for about a month with waterchanges until nitrites and ammonia are at zero. Nitrite can effect the fish's respiration so watch for labored or heavy breathing, or gulping at the surface morethan normal.
best of luck. I'm certain its not ich from description and collumnaris usually spreads very fast with other symptoms.
could you post a pic?
Cheers

Tokis-Phoenix · Apr 17, 2011

It could be Columnaris (bacterial infection which looks like a fungal infection). Here are two excellent links on indentifying & treating Columnaris;

http

/www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

http

/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/columnaris_disease.php

There are various different strains of Columnaris, some of which are more rapid or virulent than others. Are the grey patches mostly concentrated around the fishes back where the dorsal fin attaches? Columnaris is a common fish disease and is often misidentified, but as far as betta infection's go its a fairly common betta disease as it thrives more in tanks which have low or no filtration at all.

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 17, 2011

loraxchick said:
I dont think it is any sort of illness rather overproduction of slimecoat from nitrite/ammonia in the water. You need to do a large waterchange now70-80%, and do smaller ones20%or so every other day until your tank is cycled. Hopefully you've put a cartridge in the filter and will have to keep up for about a month with waterchanges until nitrites and ammonia are at zero. Nitrite can effect the fish's respiration so watch for labored or heavy breathing, or gulping at the surface morethan normal.
best of luck. I'm certain its not ich from description and collumnaris usually spreads very fast with other symptoms.
could you post a pic?
Cheers

Why would it be overproduction of slimecoat due to high ammonia or nitrite levels when my levels on both are reading at 0? I realize this is a new tank that I've set up and everything, but he's the only fish in there so the tank isn't getting too dirty. I will be doing a large water change tomorrow though. He isn't having any trouble breathing from what I can tell. Also, how does overproduction of slimecoat play into the fact that he's got rapid deterioration of his fins? That's one symptom of columnaris that I know I've read of. That along with the smooth gray spots on his body lead me to believe this is a mild columnaris infection. Also, when I treated with the Fungus Clear and the next day I noticed some "slime" falling off the front of his body, that leads me to believe that it's some sort of bacterial or fungal infection. I don't believe the treatment has been able to completely kill off the columnaris perhaps because my temp has been too high at 82. I've read the treatments often times aren't strong enough to kill the columnaris on their own. Too high of tank temperatures and not doing enough water changes can cause the growth of the columnaris to counteract the power of the treatment. My plan is to turn the temp down to 74 or 75, do a large water change tomorrow, and retreat with the Fungus Clear. I'll keep you posted on the results. Thanks for the help!

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 17, 2011

Tokis-Phoenix said:
It could be Columnaris (bacterial infection which looks like a fungal infection). Here are two excellent links on indentifying & treating Columnaris;

http/www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/columnaris_disease.php

There are various different strains of Columnaris, some of which are more rapid or virulent than others. Are the grey patches mostly concentrated around the fishes back where the dorsal fin attaches? Columnaris is a common fish disease and is often misidentified, but as far as betta infection's go its a fairly common betta disease as it thrives more in tanks which have low or no filtration at all.

The grey specks are mainly around his head. However, the first one I noticed was around the middle of his body below and behind his dorsal fin. It is still there and so are the ones on and around his head, however they ARE less pronounced it appears. I have seen quite a few pictures of columnaris and aeromonas now and they don't look anything like what Patron` has. He has no sores or wounds like shown in most pictures I've seen. I don't know what it could be. It's nothing like I've seen in any picture. My best guess is columnaris or something similar. I believe that I may have possibly caught it early enough that it isn't spreading or growing and that's why the spots are remaining smooth....I wish I could get a picture, but I tried with my wife's camera and couldn't get a clear shot. It doesn't take a clear picture. It's not a crappy camera because it's a Nikon. It's not a professional type camera, just digital. Any suggestions on how I can get a close and clear picture. Is there some sort of camera setting I put it on to take a clear picture through water? Silly question I know. I can take a clearer picture with my phone, but it has no flash and I can't get a well lit photo. I'll try maybe shining a light on him and snapping one with the phone maybe.

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 17, 2011

Hope you can distinguish the bubbles from the gray marks on his body in the first pic. If you look just behind and below his dorsal fin in the second picture you'll see the spot I first noticed. The spot is slightly raised and smooth as I've stated before. He also has these spots around his head, but I couldn't get any good pictures of them. They don't appear to be as pronounced as the few on his body though. The spot I first noticed(in the first picture) seems to be contained to one scale. In other words, it looks like only that particular scale in that area has the spot. The smooth raised gray spot does not overlap onto a neighboring scale it appears. I find that weird. I don't notice if any of the other spots are the same as to only be contained to one scale because he doesn't turn to be able to see him from that side for very long. Well, I'm glad I could provide some pictures for y'all. I hope they are somewhat helpful!

Tokis-Phoenix · Apr 18, 2011

Hmmmmmm

It doesn't look quite like early stage Columnaris.

... ... ...

There is a rare fish virus called Lymphocystis, here's a link on it;

http

/www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/lymphocystis.php

It's something that effects the fins mostly though...

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 18, 2011

Tokis-Phoenix said:
Hmmmmmm

It doesn't look quite like early stage Columnaris.

... ... ...

There is a rare fish virus called Lymphocystis, here's a link on it;

http/www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/lymphocystis.php

It's something that effects the fins mostly though...
[/quote/]

Sounds like what he has, but I don't have a clue where he would have gotten it. He's had no contact with other fish ever. Only thing I can think of is the new water supply. I was living in Louisiana and moved to Texas in December and now we've been in a new apartment since the end of January. He just showed symptoms of this a couple of weeks ago or so though. I don't know what to do. I think I'll just continue on with my plan to retreat with Fungus Clear at a lower water temperature and another shot of aquarium salt. Other than that I don't know what to do because I don't know what I'm fighting. I know I've got to kill the fin deterioration though and hopefully the Fungus Clear will at least rid that. I just hope he pulls through it cause he's such a cool fish.

Tokis-Phoenix · Apr 19, 2011

BIGbadJOHN said:
Tokis-Phoenix said:

Hmmmmmm

It doesn't look quite like early stage Columnaris.

... ... ...

There is a rare fish virus called Lymphocystis, here's a link on it;

http/www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/lymphocystis.php

It's something that effects the fins mostly though...
[/quote/]

Sounds like what he has, but I don't have a clue where he would have gotten it. He's had no contact with other fish ever. Only thing I can think of is the new water supply. I was living in Louisiana and moved to Texas in December and now we've been in a new apartment since the end of January. He just showed symptoms of this a couple of weeks ago or so though. I don't know what to do. I think I'll just continue on with my plan to retreat with Fungus Clear at a lower water temperature and another shot of aquarium salt. Other than that I don't know what to do because I don't know what I'm fighting. I know I've got to kill the fin deterioration though and hopefully the Fungus Clear will at least rid that. I just hope he pulls through it cause he's such a cool fish.

Click to expand...

If the betta does have Lymphocystis then on the plus side it isn't normally fatal and while fish tend to take a while to recover from it it, most do. I would personally treat the fish with an anti internal bacterial rather than fungal med as bacterial infections (like septicemia, bacterial finrot & columnaris) are more common in fish already injured or weakened by other things. Make sure his diet is optimum too, try feeding him fresh frozen fish foods like bloodworms & krill (though not tubifex worms as they are known to come from waters contaminated with raw sewage- daphinia might be a bit difficult to feed in exact quantities to a single betta as they are very tiny) .

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 19, 2011

Yeah, I read that about the lymphocystis. I hope that is all it is. It sucks though bc it's a virus and I don't want to put him with any other fish since it says it's highly contagious. I will pick up some anti bacterial food. I was thinking about it already. Thanks for all your help. You're very knowledgeable. :good:

BIGbadJOHN · Apr 29, 2011

Well, I did a second dose of Jungle's Fungus Clear and I've done a couple water changes since then as well. The spots are still there. Patron` is acting healthy as a horse. Feeds eagerly and aggressively, swims ALL about the tank almost nonstop. Doesn't rub on anything that I can tell. In fact, right after I finished the last treatment he made the most ENORMOUS bubble nest I've ever seen! It covered about an 1/8 of the 10 gallon tank! It was THICK too. Just don't have any idea what these spots are other than lymphcystis. It's not like any pictures of lymphocystis I've seen though, but maybe the appearance of the virus differs from fish to fish. His fins also seem to have significant regrowth compared to when they were seriously tattered. I'd say they're around 90-95% full now. Everything looks fantastic other than the spots he has. I really want to maybe get a fish or 2 to put with him and see if everything goes well. Anyways, feel free to post some more guys!

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