So Confused

Hi everybody,

I'm new at this and have come to a point that I've read a number of posts in different forums and have now come to a standstill with my new set up. Can somebody help me please?

There’s a rundown of what I've done/bought:
Boyu TL-550 128 litre tank (is was bought as a marine set up, which I've stored away for another time, possibly)

Filter system that came with tank:
Protein Separator - Boyu Flow Rate: 80-120L (taken out of tank and replaced with a EHEIM boipower 200 internal filter 100-200L 210-650L/H)
UV Sterilization device (?)
Heating-rod - Boyu heater 100 Watts (taken out of tank and replaced with Tetratac HT150 - 150 Watts)
Water pump - BOYU Submersible Pump model: SP102-1200, power 19W Hmax 10N - Qmax 1200L/H
Filtration Cotton (taken out of tank)
Filtration bag (taken out of tank)
Biochemical Balls (taken out of tank)
Active Carbon (taken out of tank)
Ceramic Rings (taken out of tank

Lighting:
Fluorescent Lamp 2GLL 2x24W + 10000k (I would like a planted tank and don't know if I need to change the lighting)

Have also got:
Gravel (all ready washed and in tank)
Natural Wood (currently in soak)
Plants (will have to get pictures loaded because I'm not shore of the name - working on a non-CO2 system)
API Freshwater Master Test Kit
Submersible digital thermometer
NTLABS Aquarium Bio-Starter kit - for a fishless cycling
API Stress Coat+
Easy Life - Easycarbo - carbon fertilizer for plants
Easy Life - ProFito - fertilizer extra complete for the plants

I know I've listed a lot but I wanted to give you a full picture. I was all shore what I was doing after some research and I also read Step by step guide to your first aquarium by Miss Wiggle, but today I read Why We Should Not Fishless Cycle Planted Tanks by Dave Spencer and now I don't know what to do nexted. I'm thinking that I shouldn't have bought any plant.

Thanks DTLP

Hi, sounds like everyone when they find all the information on the net haha No worries we can get you on the right track

Right the tank, 128 liters good sized first tank big enough to get a lot of nice fish in there and a lot of options for you. So good choice on that one!

From the filtration, you dont need the skimmer in a freshwater tank its not needed so take that out and that internal you got will do great The UV steraliser, if you want to use it use it as it does have some use but dont have it plugged in for the first few weeks.

Good choice on swapping the heating wire for the regular heater a lot simpler for you to deal with on a first tank.

All the filtration media, the cotton and the bio balls etc need to go in your filters

As to whether to do the fishless cycle or not. I would simply because in the early stages of a fish tank you need to grow bacteria to deal with the chemicals that are caused by fish poo - these chemicals are called ammonia and nitrite and the bacteria that gets created use these chemicals like we use oxygen basically so the first set of bacteria uses the ammonia and creates nitrite then the second set uses the nitrite and then creates nitrate which is quite harmless to fish and we need to remove the nitrate through water changes.

Now a fishless cycle using bottled ammonia by passes the need for fish poo so you dont need fish in the tanks so your not exposing the fish to the poisons that are caused by the fish poo and your starting the cycle based on the chemicals that would be present in the tank. And to do this all you do is add a few drops of pure ammonia each day for about 6 weeks and test it with the API test kit you bought.

With a fish in cycle you use the fish to create the fish poo and in turn the ammonia but because there is no bacteria in the filter yet and thats what you are growing in the early stages the chemicals build up and burn the fish, it also causes brain and nerve damage to the fish. So to combat that you do large daily water changes as the fish are basically in your hands as to if they sit in the polluted water and die or not. The other risk is that with exposing the fish to a tank with no filter bacteria and then high levels of ammonia and nitrite are that they get ill, either a parasite or bacteria can attack them in a stressed or weakened state and then if it kills them the disease can stay in the tank and then attack your next fish.

In all honesty the fishless cycle is so much easier and less complicated than a fish in cycle it is risk free because you cant kill any fish its just time consuming and time spent with no fish.

Plants in a fishless cycle tank are not a problem but in a fishless cycle tank you can get a lot of algae so just be careful of that with the plants you have at present.

Hope that helps and it does sound like you are learning a lot so just take a while to take it all in, its just one of those things with this hobby that the start is the hardest part but get this bit right and the tank will be so easy for you from here on in its really enjoyable (most of the time)

Wills

Hi DTLP,

Let us know if you decide to come back and we can continue the discussion. I think Wills has provided some good advice and we can continue to discuss the pros and cons of whether to go planted right in the beginning as part of the cycling (per Dave's article) or whether to go with our more average beginners method we use here in our freshwater beginners section, thus delaying your entrance into the full planted tank aspect, but not at all causing any problems for your planted tank in the long run and definately allowing you to make your beginner's cycling mistakes risk-free in terms of the fish.

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks for the advice Wills. Sorry have been absent for a time been doing research, your right about the steep learning curve, have been on the internet most nights trying to get my head round it.

All the filtration media I listed is extra, the Filtration Cotton, Filtration bag, Biochemical Balls, Active Carbon and Ceramic Rings all came with the tank as a marine set up. The filter I’ve put in the tank has its own media i.e. bio balls and filter cartridges. The extra stuff I was going to shore.

I was looking at doing a fishless cycle (have done my reading on this), I don't like the idea of subjecting fish to my learning curve I just got worried after reading Dave Spencer post, it mentions not having to cycle a planted tank (I understand that's after set up and when everything is stable, I'm not looking to get out of the initial work) But he talks about C02 tanks I'm looking at non-C02). Have found some good wed-sites on non-c02 methods, one being on www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank-guide. My aim is not to kill any fish or plants hopefully (x fingers).

Con's of starting a planted tank:
1)The common problem I've found is that most/all the articles I read about starting a new planted tank include a introduction of mulm from an established tank from a cycled tank into the newly setup substrate. That will help establish bacteria faster. Where I haven't got the luxury.
2) The hole science of it all makes my headache

Pros of starting a planted tank:
1) I've already got some plants
2) The tank would end up with have the feel that I would like, natural.
3) If I don't do it in this tank, I feel I might not get round to it. (I have only got room for one tank)

Am thing of changing my lighting to 2wpg = 60w + 6500K for my tank on a T5 daylight bulb with a green spike in the spectrum, am currently running, Fluorescent Lamp 2GLL 2x24W + 10000k (blue/white standard lighting that came in the tank).

Thanks for the input

Welcome back DTLP,

You will need to make a decision whether to try the method of going planted from the start and going over to the planted section for your guidance or whether to stay here and get through a fishless cycle before changing your aquarium over to the non-CO2 approach and beginning its planted life later. They are different pathways.

Unfortunately, I can't really make the decision easier for you because you have strong elements to place you on either path. You have purchased a good deal more equipment and gathered a good deal more info than our average beginner and a significant proportion of it (the lights, the easycarbo etc.) are related to doing the planted tank. On the other hand my reading of your posts leads me to conclude you are very much a new beginner and likely to suffer the usual stumbles along the path as we all did.

Its better that we don't sugar-coat either path. Both the household ammonia fishless cycling method that we teach here and the fish-in silent cycle method in the planted tank subforum are more technical than the non-hobby (and ineffective) things that happen out in the petshop-advice world. Either one takes a lot of patience and willingness to change things when you've got them wrong.

If you have aleady purchased enough plants to cover 70% or more of your substrate then this might be another factor to push you in the direction of the planted section. If you have significantly fewer plants than that there's nothing wrong with having plants during the fishless cycle. Most tanks can come through a fishless cycle without algae but a small percentage of beginners have problems with it (Algae, being triggered by light and ammonia, can potentially find just the right conditions since there is greater excess ammonia in a fishless cycle and lights must be used if plants are present.)

The silent cycle carries its own challanges in that achieving success in plant health becomes a factor in the health of the fish, along with water changes. If the health of the plants is good, the process is made easier, if some of the plants struggle, the process can get a bit more labor intensive with water changes.

Good luck with your decision and let us know,
~~waterdrop~~

Hi waterdrop,

Thanks for all the advice, it’s gratefully received. I have not yet bought enough plants to cover that amount of substrate, I kinda put everything on hold while I figured out some things out. Yes I'm very much a beginner in it all, never kept fish before but willing to learn. My little boy would love them too. I think I'm going to give the planted tank ago, as I've got quite a few bits and bobs together to head that way. Will do a bit more reading up in the plant forum.

Thanks again.

Just adding the plants and promoting their growth will see your tank processing ammonia, and without you ever seeing any nitrite. Plants export several beneficial nutrients such as hydrocarbons that will feed a bacteria colony. These colonies do not live off ammonia alone.

The plants will also oxygenate the water, including in the substrate where their roots are, and a lot of the bacteria colony will be. A healthy colony is often transported in to the aquarium with the plants, and can grow rapidly stronger with plant growth. See Supercoley1 for when to add fish to a slower growth planted tank. He doesn`t waste any time waiting around with an empty tank. Let`s face it, we all want fish in as soon as is possible.

You don`t need mulm, it just helps speed up the whole process. My first ever tank was started the way I described in the sticky, with fish being added after a week and no problems. All I did was what you have done….read. There is no mystery to planted tanks.

If you wish to fishless cycle, then there is no point in adding plants at this stage. Feel free to add ammonia, test all sorts of parameters with expensive hobby grade test kits, etc. Growing plants is easy. If you go planted, don`t go fishless cycle.

People with non CO2 tanks can see some die off of their plants in the early stages. This will be due to plants that have adapted to emersed growing changing their physiology for immersed growth, so don`t confuse this with poor plant health.

I have found that with good pressurised CO2 from the start, this melting can be avoided in all plant species. I propagate the notorious melting Crypts in a propagator, yet never see any of this so called “inevitable melt” when they are planted in my tanks. For me, good CO2 means levels well above 30ppm, to promote rapid plant growth prior to introducing fish.

By the way, there is no need to upgrade your lighting. No plants need 2WPG, despite what you may hear.

Dave.

DTLP, you might be a good candidate for going forward with a planted tank fish-in cycle and there's interest from Dave, so you'd get some good advice when he checked in on your thread (the thread could be here or in the planted forum.) You already have some plants and could increase their number and you already have easycarbo and some info on what's going to be involved.

There shouldn't be too much worry about the fish getting hurt as, unlike many "after-the-fact" beginners we deal with, you will go in to this with advice. That means you will make the decisions necessary to get the extra plants, ferts and other details needed to get the plants up and running and that you will be advised as to number and size of fish such that you will have about the right amount for this type of fish-in cycle. And finally, to ease your worry, you can always additionally plan to do water changes should you detect that the fish are stressed or that the ammonia or nitrite is rising above a low level.

I'd be interested to check in and observe how it goes!

~~waterdrop~~

Since putting a firm decision on doing a planted tank I’ve altered my tank and got it up and running correctly, I’ve placed a layer of fertile substrate under my gravel, I chose to go with Eco-Complete and have fixed in place the plant that was bought to attach to my drift wood (that was very fiddly). Have currently got the temperature at 24C (should I be at a higher temp?) and am using the Easy Life - Easycarbo and ProFito.
Here are some pictures of the tank so far, still don’t know the names of the plants I’ve got.







Been doing some reading up on Silent Cycling since it was mentioned and it has shined a light on some grey areas. Also been looking at some more fast growing easy plants to help with the cycle, have so far come up with the following possibilities:
Ceratopteris thalictroides (Water Sprite), Hygrophila polysperma (Rosanervig), Bacopa Australis, Elodea Densa (Egeria Densa), Microsorium pteropus/Java Fern (another one for the drift wood), Ceratophyllum demersum (Foxtail), Micromeria Brownei (Creeping Charlie), Ludwigia mullertii (Red Ludwigia), Bacopa monnieri (Moneywort), Hygrophila difformis (Wisteria), Shinnersia rivularis (Mexican Oakleaf).

I was looking at lighting because what I currently have is, fluorescent lamp 2GLL 2x24W + 10000k (marine double bulbs one white one blue x2) should I be looking at changing the bulbs for daylight bulbs to help the plants growth? I’ve managed to find a T5 compact 24W Daylight bulb on ebay, but haven’t gone ahead with it yet.

I forgot to ask if I need to get a air pump as well.

Thanks DTLP

Yes, off to a great start with some really nice plants there. You are correct in realizing though that that is not the planting level being referred to as a "planted tank,".. it currently is a tank with plants! It is my understanding that it would be easier to achieve a silent cycle with a good deal heavier coverage of plants, but I am not an expert at judging that. Likewise I feel it would be good to get input from some planted experts about their opinions of the different lights. My own feeling is that I would probably go for a daylight spectrum, more like 6500K and not the white/blue of the marine lights. My hesitation though is that there are also comments from the experts sometimes that light is just light and many different tints/spectrums can be used in the hands of an exerienced person and still work out. While most planted tank enthusiasts do prefer high flow, they usually need more powerful filters and independent powerheads to achieve it, not air pumps, which I would relegate to personal choice more on an aesthetic basis (if you like them, they certainly won't -hurt- anything, to my knowledge.)

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks for your reply again waterdrop , I'm going to be doing some internet purchases of plants from Green Machine so I can achieve a proper "planted tank", have picked some of the plants from my previous list. About the lighting I'll post a question over in the plant form and see what I come up with. I will post some more pictures after I've some more planting.

dtlp