The Darker Side Of Cycling.....

The tank has been setup and blacked out for 2 days now, so I decided to take some water readings to see what changes are going on

Tap Water:
NH3/4 = 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 25 mg/l (normal for my local water)
PH = 7.6
KH = 11 dKH
GH = 340 ppm

Tank water after 48 hours:
1 good sized pinch of fish flake has been added along with the recommended dosage of JBL Denitrol.
NH3/4 = 3 mg/l
NO2 = 0.3 mg/l
NO3 = 25 mg/l
PH = 7.2
KH = 3 dKH
GH = 200 ppm

I dont put too much faith in the accuracy of the test kits at this stage, ADA Aquasoil is known to impact on the water chemistry although most of the info I've seen (including my last tank setup) included PowerSand.
When I used the AS/PS combo my NH3/4 went off the scale for the Tetra test kit after about 3 days !

There's certainly something happening in there I'll take another set of readings in a couple of days.

Al

Water Test Results 26/12/06:

NH3/4 = 5 mg/l (Thats as high as the test set goes !)
NO2 = 0.5 mg/l
NO3 = 25 mg/l
PH = 6.8
KH = 2 dKH
GH = 160 ppm

The NH3/4 reading has gone off the scale as far as the test set goes, meanwhile my PH has dropped and the GH and KH have taken a dive compared to the initial 'tap' readings.

The tank remains 100% blacked out, the only time I lift the covers is to take a sample of water for testing.

So is the ADA AS releasing the NH3? Do you think you'd get this effect with a mature filter, or do you think there would be to much intial NH3 even for a mature filter? If so, you couldn't add AS to an established tank, only to new setups.

Sam

Themuleous said:

So is the ADA AS releasing the NH3? Do you think you'd get this effect with a mature filter, or do you think there would be to much intial NH3 even for a mature filter? If so, you couldn't add AS to an established tank, only to new setups.

Sam

Click to expand...

Not really sure how it would work with a mature filter.
I do know that both times I've used ADA AS, I've had similar NH3 spikes. Once was with ADA PS and once without and I remember that 'Craynerd' had an equally high spike in his setup, I believe he was using AS with a mulm/Peat sub-layer rather than PS.

What I'm expecting to happen, is that the NH3 spike will start to fall off over the weekend and things start to settle down over the next 10 - 14 days.

Another couple of sets of water test results.
The NH3/4 is still off the scale as far as the Tetra test kit is concerned, I think this will start do drop early next week.
The KH has dropped to a really low value, but I was expecting that.
The PH seems to have settled between 6.6 & 6.8 over the last 2 days.

Water Test Results 28/12/06:
NH3/4 = 5 mg/l
NO2 = 0.5 mg/l
NO3 = 12.5 mg/l
PH = 6.6
KH = 1.1 dKH
GH = 140 ppm

Water Test Results 30/12/06:
NH3/4 = 5 mg/l
NO2 = 0.3 mg/l
NO3 = 12.5 mg/l
PH = 6.8
KH = 1.1 dKH
GH = 140 ppm

I dont put too much faith in the results of the test kits at the moment, last time I setup a tank with ADA AS & PS the results were wild for the first 10 days and then settled down quite quickly.

Al

I'm interested to see how it works for you. Since i've just started almost doing what your doing.

A while ago i set up all the hardscape and substrate. But i wasnt ready for plants so i just left the tank without the light on. Then about a week later i went on holiday and partially covered the tank, to reduce light. When i came back, there was slight brown algae on the wood, but i'm not worried about this. Today i added ammonia to a 4 ppm reading, and completely covered the tank. So...we'll see what happens. I'll probably continue adding ammonia, until i'm ready to add plants. I might do a few water changes to cut down on Nitrate though. Unlike you my tap waters nitrate level is very high. I can't see the value becasue the higher shades are very similiar, and in different light its varies from 40- 100+

Good luck!

Gnatfish said:

I'm interested to see how it works for you. Since i've just started almost doing what your doing.

A while ago i set up all the hardscape and substrate. But i wasnt ready for plants so i just left the tank without the light on. Then about a week later i went on holiday and partially covered the tank, to reduce light. When i came back, there was slight brown algae on the wood, but i'm not worried about this. Today i added ammonia to a 4 ppm reading, and completely covered the tank. So...we'll see what happens. I'll probably continue adding ammonia, until i'm ready to add plants. I might do a few water changes to cut down on Nitrate though. Unlike you my tap waters nitrate level is very high. I can't see the value becasue the higher shades are very similiar, and in different light its varies from 40- 100+

Good luck!

Click to expand...

Hi,

I'd be interested to know how you get on.
Whilst everything depends on the water readings, I think the blackout period for me will last 3 - 4 weeks.
I'm planning a large water change towards the end of the second week.
Once the water readings have settled and the filter has a decent bacteria colony, I'll probably have to feed the tank with a bit of fish flake as there will be no fish or plant waste to be broken down.

Once the lights go on and the tank gets planted, I'll start the CO2 running up much higher than normal.
I'll start EI ferts shortly afterwards.

Great stuff Al. Test kits suck eh!?

George Farmer said:

Great stuff Al. Test kits suck eh!?

Click to expand...

Well, whilst I'm taking these reading every couple of days, I certainly dont have as much faith in them as I did 6 months ago. I'm using them more to give an indication of 'change' rather than place any faith in the actual readings they give.

I think some of the test kits can be useful some of the time, but when a tank is mid-cycle they can be at best 'erratic', especially if we are using/adding substances known to impact on the water chemistry like ADA substrates & various buffering agents (possibly some medications or anti-algae treatments).

Once a tank is stable/cycled, I think kits like NH3/4 & NO2 are probably pretty reliable for what we need (A Zero reading!) - - But once the tank is 'stable' that's when we need those test kits the least !
PH test kits are probably OK as long as they dont try measure a wide range.
For instance, I get better results from a Nutrafin low range PH kit measuring 6.0 - 7.6 in 9 discreet colours, than I do from a Tetra PH kit measuring 5.0 - 10.0 in 9 discreet colours. Obvious really !

I also think test kits that try to measure Fe, Po4 and Co2 are pretty unreliable most of the time.

...... So in answer to your post ... Yeah test kits suck

Al

Many people don't trust Nitrate readings at all anymore.

andywg said:

I have no faith in API nitrate kits, mostly due to the ability for two samples from the same tank to read 0ppm and 160ppm when tested at the same time, combined with Pure RO + saltwater mix reading 160ppm. Add to this the Marine Ammonia test kit reading 0.25-0.5 ppm on pure RO + salt and you can understand why I take any readings from tanks wiht a pinch of salt.

Click to expand...

CFC said:

The accuracy of the test depends on several factors, the age of the test is important as once opened they have a shelf life of just 6 months at most, where th test kit was kept can be a factor, if kept excessively warm the chemicals may be rendered useless, likewise for cold. How the test is done is also important, you must follow the instructions exactly with precisely 10 drops of each chemical into the 5ml sample and then shake vigorously for exactly one minute. Outside of a lab these tests can at best give you a rough idea of where abouts your levels are sitting. Like andy i have taken two sample from the same tank at the same time and had two different readings, one low and one sky high when using the API test kits. To be honest i never bother to test for nitrate any more and only do any tests at all if i have reason to believe something may be wrong.

Click to expand...

Here's an update on how this Dark Cycle experiment is going:

It looks like things have started to change, the NH3/4 has started to drop and the NO2 had
taken a jump, so things are starting to move in the right direction as the following water test
results show......

- - - - - 01/01 - - 03/01 - - 05/01
NH3/4 - -4 - - - - - 4 - - - - - - -3
NO2 - - -0.3 - - - -0.5 - - - - - -1.6
NO3 - -12.5 - - - -12.5 - - - - - 25
PH - - - 6.8 - - - - -6.8 - - - - - 6.8
GH - - -140 - - - - 140 - - - - - 140
KH - - - 1.1 - - - - -1.1 - - - - - -1.1

I was considering a 50% water change this weekend, but may leave this another week now things have started moving along and see if it really needs one.

I did have a small problem that may have caused a glitch in the water stats on 30/12. One of the kids decided to help out by cleaning up around the house and unplugged the filter !!!
It could have been off for somewhere between 8 - 12 hours. This is obviously not good for the bacteria development, but all seems good now.
Interestingly the NO2 reading at that time dropped from 0.5mg/l to 0.3mg/l, but was back to 0.5 by the 5 Jan.

I have allowed myself 2 quick visual checks on the tank (01 & 05 Jan), I wanted to see how things
were looking. The water has a bit of a yellow tint to it, this could be from the bogwood. One
piece of bogwood also had a little white looking fungus growing on it when I first checked, but
today this seems to be clearing on it's own.

Other than that the tank would appear to be 100% algae free, including no sign of brown Diatoms which I believe are usually associated with new tanks and immature filters.
So things would seem to be going well enough for now.
However the critical point will come when the covers come off and the lights go on.

The current plan is to remain with a full black out until water stats stabilise and remained stable for a few days. Once water is stable, the covers will be removed, I'll do a large water change (50% - 60%). The tank will be planted up and the Co2 switched on and turned up high (50ppm+) and the lights will go on with a photoperiod of approx 10 hours.

I wont start adding ferts for about a week. I want to keep the water column lean until the plants get settled, hopefully this will deny any algae a foothold in the tank.

The planting of the tank won't include a huge amount of fast growers.
There plan for the scape is to include Cyrpts, Anubias, Echinodorus, Microsorum pteropus and some Rotala in the background. The foreground will consist mainly or Glosso.

That's where we'll see if a mature filter and high Co2 will allow planting with a larger proportion of
med/slow growing plants and still avoid algae, rather than loading up with fast growing weeds.

My planned layout for this tank does include some open space that could be used for fast growers if things start to go wrong and it needs to be rescued I also have a decent quantity of floating Watter lettuce that can be added as a temporary measure..... I love experimenting, but not to the extent of losing a tank full of expensive plants.

Cheers
Al

Nice update mate. Everything sounds like it's going to plan.

So, is it the objective behind this type of cycle that you hope to have practically zero algae at any point? If so, good luck. If it works, this is how I will cycle my next tank, rather than filling it with plants I may not particularly want.

Are you still happy with the AquaEl filter? I have the 250l version winging its way to my home right now. I currently just run the internal Juwel filter, but I wasn`t too concerned about their poor reputation because most filtration is coming from the biomass. Anyway, I have ordered the AquaEl Unimax 250 to polish the water and give it crystal clear clarity. The freebie UV steriliser that comes with it was the deciding factor on choice.

George Farmer said:

Nice update mate. Everything sounds like it's going to plan.

Click to expand...

Cheers George. Thanks for the idea .... No idea if it will work out or not, but certainly worth having a go and seeing what happens.

Dave Spencer said:

So, is it the objective behind this type of cycle that you hope to have practically zero algae at any point? If so, good luck. If it works, this is how I will cycle my next tank, rather than filling it with plants I may not particularly want.

Are you still happy with the AquaEl filter? I have the 250l version winging its way to my home right now. I currently just run the internal Juwel filter, but I wasn`t too concerned about their poor reputation because most filtration is coming from the biomass. Anyway, I have ordered the AquaEl Unimax 250 to polish the water and give it crystal clear clarity. The freebie UV steriliser that comes with it was the deciding factor on choice.

Click to expand...

Dave, This experiment came about from an idea that George Farmer had, but has not been in a position to try out.
The aim is to try cut down on early algae issues whilst the tank cycles and the bacteria colony develops. One of the worst times for algae is the first few weeks when starting up a 'New' (new filter/substrate etc) planted tank (or any tank).
You start with little or no nitrifying bacteria in the filter and substrate, the water chemistry can be all over the place, especially when using products like ADA substrates and algae can often get a grip before the plants have time to keep it at bay.

...... if algae gets a chance to grow, it will ! But if we can make things easier for the bacteria & plants and harder for the algae, then that's got to be a good thing.

The usual advice during this time is to plant heavily with fast growing weeds to deny algae the NH3/4.
The trouble is not everybody wants a tank full of weeds that eventually get uprooted and replaced with slower growing plants. Hopefully this was I can try planting with more of the medium/slower growing plants .... there will still be some fast growers in there, just not as many.

By the time the lights/plants/Co2 go on, there shoud be a decent bacteria colony in the filter and substrate and no algae. From the water test results it certainly seems the colony is developing and so far the tank looks algae and Diatom free.

The real test comes when the light go on, then we'll see if the bacteria/plants and high CO2 are enough to deny algae a foothold ....... I have no idea if this will work out or not, but unless anybody can tell me it won't work ..... it's got to be worth trying.

As for the AquaEL filter ... we'll it's early days, but so far I'm very happy with it. The '500' gives great water circulation without excessive surface movement and it's very quiet.

Al

I was going to leave an update until I had at least 2 sets of readings ... but there has been a large
spike in both NO2 and NO3, combined with a slight drop in PH, Gh and KH.

Date 07/01/07
NH3/NH4 3
NO2 3.3
NO3 50
PH 6.6
GH 130
KH 0.5

This gives an idea of the changes to the water chemistry after 16 days cycling under a total blackout. I'll post a full set of graphs once the water has stabilised.




During this time my PH has dropped from 7.5 down to 6.6 and the KH is down from 11 to less than 1.
The current NH3/4 reading could be slightly lower than 3, the colour was mid way between the colours on the ref chart, so I took the highest reading !

The NO2 graph is pretty much in line with the graph for ADA Aquasoil and Powersand shown in Vol 38 of the ADA AquaJournal (English edition).

Hopefully the next week will see things settle down a bit.

Al